Reader Mail: Daemons/IG

A. writes:

Slaede,
First, let me thank you for the fantastic blog you run. I started playing Daemons in September 2012 with a very limited approach: play Screamers. As a DE Reaver fan, I saw the new Screamer rules and was blown away: a 2W jetbike with a turboboost attack and the ability to munch on tanks? That was a shark manta? I could not resist, but I didn't have much to go on as to how to develop a playable force. I found your blog after some time searching for good Daemon discussion, and right away I could see you knew what you were talking about. Ever since then I have been following your posts religiously, and they have shaped my playstyle and outlook on the Daemon army more than anything else. Thanks for the great work!

Now, I want to ask for a little bit of your time. I have until now been putting together this army that I aimed for being a combination of "fluffy+useful+I like it", which, no surprise to you, is Mono-Tzeentch with cheap Cultist or Traitor Guard allies. I was content to focus more on modeling than competitiveness, and for a long time the brokenness of Screamers made it hard for me to lose even to people playing tuned armies they were more familiar with. However, my game club is running a big tournament next week, and I had an urge to break out the big guns and try and take first place. The catch is that I have started losing! My last few games have either come down to the wire against tuned lists or else been total defeats at the hands of a brutal Necron army piloted by a talented friend. Just at the time when I felt confident enough with the army to sincerely believe I can win big, the good times end, and now I don't know what to do. 

I would like to ask you to take a quick look at my list and typical strategy and let me know if you spot anything obvious that I could do better to increase my army's competitiveness.

Fateweaver 333

5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch 170
5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch 

5 Flamers of Tzeentch 345
5 Flamers of Tzeentch 
5 Flamers of Tzeentch 

6 Screamers of Tzeentch 450
6 Screamers of Tzeentch 
6 Screamers of Tzeentch 

Aegis Defense Line, Quad-Gun 100

Company Command Squad, Fleet Officer 80

Infantry Platoon 250
Platoon Command Squad 
Infantry Squad, Flamer
Infantry Squad, Flamer
Infantry Squad
Special Weapons Squad, 3 Flamer 

1 Vendetta Gunship 130

[TOTAL: 1848]

The army pushes my model stock almost to the limit, but I would not be averse to picking up/borrowing any cheapish models you might suggest. Probably not a Bastion unless I can borrow one. I probably should swallow my fluff pride and make those Horrors into Daemonettes if I need more points. The big recent change I made was taking out a Lord of Change+Mastery+Breath and Marbo in order to fit in more Screamers, Flamers, and Infantry, as well as switching a Comms Relay to a Quad-Gun. My typical preferred wave is Fatewaver+3Screamers+1Flamer, and if I get non-preferred I try and get everything out of sight, though the store's terrain has not been ideal, so non-preferred wave games are usually rough. The Infantry squads either camp the Defense Line or else walk on. I almost never get to actually use the Special Weapons squad, though they have won me a game or two just by being able to disembark late game. My main concern is getting shot to pieces, mainly by 3 Annihilation Barges supported by Scythes, hence the Quad-Gun+Officer...but I'm just not confident right now that my typical plan of "get Fatey close, surround with sharks, Turn 2 assault" is going to hold up, especially with Wraiths thrown in. I also have no idea how to approach a 50-man Guard blob, especially now that Azrael gives them a 4++. "Take Flamers and Screamers" is looking less and less like the ultimate word on winning!

I guess I'm having a bit of a crisis of faith in what has been a fun and devastating army, and you are the one that I trust to tell me if my concerns are valid. If you take five minutes to let me know what you think, I will be quite satisfied, I believe.

Thanks for all the help,



I go back and forth between the bastion and the aegis all the time.  I think the bastion is slightly better for Daemon allies because it's like a free backfield Land Raider with firepoints.  You can make an aegis work, however.

I don't like putting a line of infantry behind an aegis because the heavy weapons teams can't see over the stupid thing, and it just lines up your force to get charged or hit with a baleflamer or something.  Nobody cares about going last vs. guardsmen in assault.  Instead, I like putting vehicles behind it for the 4+ cover save, then sending them on the move.  So, do you have/can you get any Chimeras?

Looking at your list, the Horrors are indeed 20-30 points of dead weight that you could use to free up space for something.  On the other hand, you don't need to.  Where you can clean it up is in the IG section.

Here's your IG troops component:

Infantry Platoon 250
Platoon Command Squad 
Infantry Squad, Flamer
Infantry Squad, Flamer
Infantry Squad
Special Weapons Squad, 3 Flamer 

First of all, that only costs 240 so I've found you ten points right off the bat.   

The Special Weapons Squad is dead weight with only 6 weak-as-can-be models and no range.  They can't take a dedicated transport, so nobody in their right mind will get near them with anything they could actually threaten.  In other words, they're totally worthless.  So scratch that off. 

Now that they're gone, you have four IG scoring units that pose no long range threat, have no mobility, no survivability, and run easily.  Ducking behind the Aegis won't work because you'll just get charged.  What you need instead, is some durability and mobility, that is, Chimeras.

So what if you did this instead?

CCS, OOTF
PCS
IS, Chimera w/ML and Heavy Flamer
IS, Chimera w/ML and Heavy Flamer
240

Now you've traded quantity for quality and mobility.  You can spread you scoring out and keep them away from threats.  The PCS and CCS sit behind the Aegis on the quad gun and present a much less enticing target.

Now, if you free up 30 points, you can add autocannons to the PCS and CCS and flamers or GLs to the IS's.  You can get those 30 points by either dropping the OOF, or changing the Horrors to Daemonettes.  Are you expecting to play against more than four Night Scythes?  If not, you don't need the OOF.

I'm always reluctant to tell people to buy new models, especially when a new book is around the corner, but I think Chimeras would improve this. 

As for the Screamers and Flamers being the ultimate word on winning, it isn't.  It's just the best you can do at the moment.  As an army, (Tzeentch) Daemons are great against the vast majority of armies out there, but not against them all.  Daemons have no good answers for Necron Wraiths (well, Bloodcrushers, but they'e slow and expensive), Scythe Spam or Salvo Ravenwing.  That's just how it is, but again, you can't do any better than Flamer/Screamer spam because everything else in the army is non-competitive save for Epidemius gimmicks.  Bloodcrushers are too slow, Fiends are strictly worse than Screamers, and Tzeentch Princes have T5 and four wounds.

I deal with Wraiths by ignoring them as much as possible, which is hard, drawing them away from the bulk of my forces so they're out of the fight, and then tying them up with Flamers backed by Fatweaver when they get close as a last resort.  It usually holds them for 3-4 rounds or so.  Wraiths almost always survive the battle.  They're just too hard to kill without tons of dakka I don't have.

There are two ways to deal with a 50 man blob.  The hard-to-pull-off/cool way is to hit them with several squads of Flamers on the same turn.  Otherwise, you can try to tarpit it using Flamers or Screamers backed by Fateweaver.  

As for flyers, in preparation for the team tournament back in December, I was able to defeat a 6 Flyer, 12 Wraith, Imhotekh army in a practice game with a Daemons/IG combo by using the stuff I advocate.  Block flyer movement with Screamers and hopefully the Officer of the Fleet keeps them out so you can deal with them piecemeal.  You may need a Hydra, however.

Don't sweat losing.  If you run into a list you probably can't beat, don't give up, know the odds of every move, take intelligent risks, and play it the best you can.

Hope that helps.






I shall explore Aegiseses vs. Bastions in a future post.