How You Beat Dem: Eldar

A reader requested How You Beat Dem articles on Eldar and Blood Angels.  I am happy to oblige. 

Eldar are one of those armies that are at a severe disadvantage against Daemons.  At least the Daemon stuff that everyone uses (Yes, Screamers y Flamers...).  They have absurdly expensive transports that have no fire points and lots of BS3 shooting.  The army is made entirely of specialists, so where a Screamer can kill tanks, heavy infantry, and is passable against hordes, and Flamers can kill anything, Eldar can boast few units that are good against multiple targets.  This forces them to bring things like Fire Dragons, which are darn near useless against Daemons.  They have no flyer defense, forcing them to ally.  Most of my best lists have three models that fly.

In 5th, Eldar were one of the toughest armies to beat because it was nigh impossible to kill all their skimmers with assault.  The 5th Edition Eldar technique was to sit in transports the entire game doing not much of anything besides floating around like ninnies, then make a turn 5 dash for objectives.  I faced this sort of army to the letter in the first round of the Nashcon GT last may and played it to a tie because the game ended on turn 5.  I killed one of his units.  He killed none of mine.  It was boring and frustrating as hell.  Two strong performances in rounds two and three let me sneak into third place, but I thought I had not chance to place after facing this list.  It was depressing.  But I digress...

Mech Eldar appears quite dead in 6th since hull points and the non-denial nerf to vehicles have made those ludicrously expensive transports much less worth the price.  Now it's footdars with allies.  Certain units in good Eldar lists seem to be ubiquitous.  These are:

Farseers (Or Eldrad)
Dire Avengers
One to three squads of 3 jetbikes for absurd turboboosting objective grabs

Unfortunately for you, DAs are one of the best units in the codex against Daemons, and Farseers are always equipped with Doom and Guide.  With Doom and Guide, 10 DAs can put out a ton of S4 hits, which is the bane of Screamers and Flamers.

So let's start with discussing how we kill the stuff that you will almost certainly see.  Dire Avengers have a 4+ save.  Warpfire is AP4.  Warpfire is tailor made to kill Dire Avengers.  So drop your Flamers within 18" and blast them for a good alpha strike to weaken them.  Assault them or hit them with breath to finish them off.  Eldar may be the one army where Horrors make a decent troops choice, but I still wouldn't bring them.

Guardian Jetbikes are not a threat.  Well they would be if people ran more than three in a squad for cheap, hidden scoring.  I would love to have something like this as a scoring option because I use the same technique with Daemonettes. 

I digress yet again... 

While not dangerous, jetbikes could be tough to catch, even for Screamers.  The solution is flying MCs, that can chase them down and shoot 360°.  If you have nothing better to do, DS Screamers nearby, and pass them over on your turboboost.

Farseers are usually in with DAs or guardians, which are easily dealt with.  However, a popular tactic is to run them with Harlequins to form the "Harliestar." 

The Harliestar consists of five Harlies with Kisses for rending, a Shadowseer for stealth and shrouded.  Add to this a Farseer with fortune for a Fateweaver style reroll, and a character with a 2+ save.  This is either a Phoenix Lord, a Dark Eldar Archon with a shadow field or Asdrubael Vect.  Often, it will have both Vect and a Phoenix Lord.  It costs a boatload of points, but it is absurdly tough to kill because the lead model has a rerollable 2+, and if the models are placed correctly, wounds can be transferred to the dude with the 2+ regardless of the direction of the shot with Look Out Sir.  In close combat, the character with the 2+ takes all the saves.

Many armies have no solution for the Harliestar, but Flamers make a mockery of this unit, which is why it's a silly idea.  Soon folks will realize that template weapons have their uses.  Even the lowly 5 point flamer. 

If the Harliestar gets into combat with anything you have, it will win.  You need to use Flamers to kill them, but if they have a DE character with a shadow field, you need to make sure that it is the furthest model from your squad so your opponent gets no rerolled invulnerable save.  Fateweaver is also especially useful for squishing Farseers and shadow field characters because he comes with Boon of Mutation built in, and even EW Phoenix lords go down like a sack of wet shit to Boon of Mutation.

So, what else are you likely to see that is a threat?  Elites?  Well, Striking Scorpions and Harlequins are a threat in combat to your Screamers.  You might see those.  Do not charge big squads of them with Screamers.  Slash them on the way to something better.  Banshees lack the attacks to pose a threat.  I never see them in netlists, anyway.  That's really it for CC units.

In Fast Atack, Warp Spiders are a bit better than before, and have two S6 shots per model.  They get to jump backward 2d6" in the assault phase, so they can play keep away.  Best way to deal with them is a flying Tzeentch Prince with Breath and/or Gaze.  Shoot them first turn, charge them second turn.  If you don't have one, Screamers and Flamers will eventually do the job.

Swooping Hawks would be a huge threat to you, but nobody runs them.  I wonder if these aren't overlooked with their haywire grenades. They are pretty expensive...  If you see them, give em some Warpfire or hit them with slashing attacks.

In the Heavy Support section, the tanks are overpriced and underpowered for the firepower they can put out.  The Falcon is BS3 for crying out loud.  Dark Reapers are built almost exclusively to kill marines in the open.  Support weapons platforms would be dangerous to you, but like Swooping Hawks, nobody takes them.  Maybe they should.  They're T7 now.

The best unit in this slot is the War Walker, which can mount a pair of Scatter Lasers, which bring outstanding long range firepower on a budget, and can outflank.  I'd make these my second priority behind DAs.

Wraithlords are also more popular these days thanks to T8 and the fact that anything S4 or less cain't hurt dem.  Well, Screamers is S5 and Flamers don't care.  It has but a 3+ armor save, so smash attacks from your MCs will squish it in short order.  In short, this is no big deal.

So, to beat Eldar, kill the War Walkers, Farseers and Dire Avengers first.  Avoid the assault units until weak enough to charge with little risk, and set up the Harliestar for a Flamer bath before it can charge you.  Since they are likely to bring allies, consider what those bring to the table and modify your target priority accordingly.  That part of the Eldar army that is not good at killing infantry is dead weight to them, and should be left for mop-up duty.

Showing Off My New Emperor's Children

The past few days I've been busy painting my bastion and IG to get ready for an upcoming tournament so I haven't had much time to write post.  Almost done, but I couldn't resist trying to get the first of my Chaos Space Marines painted up.  At first I was going to do Alpha Legion, but they don't have as much character, and the way they would play doesn't do it for me right now with Cultists and infiltration.  So now I have a pot of Warpstone Glow I'll probably never use.

It took five or six tries of paint combinations to get the pink right, and several trips through the paint-stripping bucket, but at last I have the first two models of mah Emprah's Chillun complete.  Perhaps once I get the CSM army big enough, I'll expand the blog to cover all manner of CSM, IG and Daemon combos.

The Chaos Lord has a Combi-melta and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax.  I know the BBS is actually a magical flamer that Kharn used at the Battle of Skalathrax, but a brand is also a sword, so his shoots flames!

I call the Slaanesh Lord "Arcadius."  I call the salt shaker "Mr. Salty."

Aura of Decay and Gretchin

 
I'm sure the idea of using Aura of Decay on your own allied Gretchin to boost the tally is not new to most of you.  It is, however, not legal without some rules-jiggering.

Aura of Decay is a ranged weapon.  Says so in its codex entry.  On page 12 of the rulebook it says any model that is found to be out of range doesn't shoot.  Not good enough for you?  Well, in the Daemons FAQ GW has ruled that Aura of Decay requires line of sight to the target.  If it requires line of sight, then obviously you must have a legal target in order to shoot.  If you try to shoot at a target out of range, you do not shoot at all.  Go read page 12 again.  You cannot go around farting anywhere you please.  It is rude.

This is a mere technicality, however.  Suppose I take some Grotz and put them behind, say, an Aegis Defense Line.  Now, entertain conjecture that said Aegis has a Quad Gun that I want the Grotz to man because they have BS3.  That there quad gun is a legal target.  That there is your loophole.

I very much doubt I'm the first person to come up with this idea, but I'm the one who has to come up with blog content (Send emails!) so I'm throwing it out there.  People are doing similar things with Typhus's Destroyer Hive by assaulting the gun with some hapless Cultists standing around.  It is all quite cheeseball, which is fine with me in competitive play.  So, if you want to field a highly-competitive Daemon list that can throw your opponent's army out of a saloon door, and like Nurgle more than Tzeentch, this is how I would do it, though I probably won't:

Epidemius
Great Unclean One
7 Plaguebearers
7 Plaguebearers
7 Plaguebearers
7 Plaguebearers
7 Plaguebearers
7 Plaguebearers
Daemon Prince, MoN, Flight, Aura of Decay, Iron Hide
Daemon Prince, MoN, Flight, Breath of Chaos, Iron Hide

Big Mek, Bosspole, Ammo Runt, Shoota
29 Gretchin, 2 Runtherds
13 Lootaz
Dakkajet, additional supa shoota, fighta ace

Aegis Defense Line, Quad Gun
Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

2000

I even managed to work the sacred number in there.  I am cool!  Actually, I'm surprised at how well it adds up, and how it all fits together.  Normally, I feel like a list could use a little more of one thing or another.  Not this one.

You need the comms relay to make sure you get Epidemius and the Aura Prince in early on.  The Lootas and Grotz deploy behind the two Aegiseses, of which you only really need to purchase one and count it as two.  You'll have to build your own comms relay since it only comes with the Bastion.  The Big Mek keeps the Grotz in line, who man the quad gun.  He also stands next to the comms relay, which is right by the quad gun.  Yes, the comms relay works if manned by a desperate ally.

Aura Prince drops and blasts the Grotz until the tally gets where it needs to be while the other one flies around killing stuff.

The tally should be to 15 by turn 3 or less.  Once there, it will be at 20 in short order, then it's GG.  You have ample anti-air, but your troops are too tough to be worried about flyer spam anyway.  They won't even give a care.

The one weakness is that there is nowhere to hide Epidemius, so I will attempt to drop my Flamers right next to his unit and blow him away ASAP.  I would prefer to put a Bastion in there to hide him in, but I need the Gretchin and the Big Mek on the quad gun and there are too many Lootaz to fit up there on the roof.  Perhaps add ten Gretchin to do that job and drop a squad of PBs?  Maybe.  I might also change the Prince with Breath to have Aura instead in case the first one dies or mishaps, but the odds of that are very low if played smartly.

This list actually scares me.  It may even be stronger than the Flamer/Screamer spam that is the in thing.  It almost makes me want to collect some Nurgle, or buy some more Mandrakes at least.  Incidentally, I betcha Epidemius gets changed significantly come February since there is so much potential for abuse.  (See: this blog post)  But until that day, abuse the system.  Whaddya think, Nurgle fans?

Forgeworld Daemons: Part 2

Howdy!


So, I know of five more Daemon units what are made by Forge World.  Several of which I did not know existed until I researched this post.

Jibberjaw
Imperial Armour Volume Seven - The Siege of Vraks Part Three

It's a Heavy Support choice for the Daemon army that isn't a Daemon.  Wat?  A buck fiddy for a MC with S6, T6, W6, I2, A D6+2, FNP, Slow and Purposeful.  No thanks, buds.

Blood Slaughterers
Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II

It's 5 points less than a Soul Grinder and can be taken in squadron of 1-3.  Fleet, WS5, F13, S12, R10, I4, A3 means it's actually pretty mean in assault.  It's "Daemonic" but not a Daemon, so no 5+ save.  It just ignores shaken and stunned like how you used to play the Soul Grinder.  Its Rage rule is the old one where you have to run towards the closest visible model, which would be a deal killer if you weren't playing Daemons and were going to land it right in front of what you want it to charge anyway.  It gets D3 extra attacks on the charge, and has a harpoon attack that can drag vehicles and MCs towards it 2d6 inches.  If you don't want to charge the unit you were forced to ragerun towards for some reason, you can shoot at something else within 12".  With the drag and Fleet, you're sure to git them.  One of the better FW units for Daemons.  Quite possibly the best.  In a pure Khorne list, you could do worse.  They're kind of like Khorne's Screamers, though not as versatile.

It also has a stupid, stupid name.

Plague Hulks
Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II

It costs way more than a Soul Grinder (5 points more than a naked Keeper of Secrets [Get it?]) while being worse.  No Daemon special rule, but it has a 5+ cover save instead.  It's not fleet.  Its Vomit is Poisoned 3+, AP3.  It's version of Phlegm is S6, AP3 rending.  It also has offensive and defensive grenades, but at I2, I don't know why you should care that it has offensive grenades.

Since it is not actually a Daemon (Doesn't have the Daemon special rule, folks.), and not technically marked by Nurgle, I don't think it legally counts as a model that can pump the Tally.  That would be the only reason to take it.  Thus I don't think there is one.

Spined Chaos Beast  
Imperial Armour Apocalypse: Second Edition

It's a cheapish monstrous creature that only has three WS5, S7 attacks.  T6 and W4 means it's as tough to kill as a Nurgle Prince on foot, which is cheaper, and in this age of smash attacks, S7 vs. S5 is not a huge deal.  It can take marks, none of which make it much better.

Gorefeaster
Imperial Armour Volume Seven - The Siege of Vraks Part Three

Same model as the Spined Chaos Beast, but this one costs 20 points more--equivalent to a Soul Grinder with Phlegm--and can't take marks.  Gorefeaster is Fleet, S8 and A4 for your extra 20 points. Decent.  But wouldn't you rather have a Soul Grinder with Phlegm for the same price?  It will kill more thingies.

And that's all she wrote.  Of all of them, I could maybe see using Blood Slaughterers in a pure Khorne CSM list.  They'll do a lot of damage, and you could bring a Khorne Warpsmith to do repairs.  Mostly by yelling at them, no doubt.  The rest are mediocre to terrible.  The biggest bummer is that not a single one of the nine do anything that the codex doesn't do fine already.  As we all know, the weaknesses in the Daemon codex are solid scoring and anti-air.  FW ain't got none o' that fuh yah.

Forgeworld Daemons: Part 1

Hallo!  I has returned from vacations in sunny Colorado!  Today I present to you a blog post.

I have read that Forgeworld stuff is becoming more widely accepted, even at some tournaments.  Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with FW stuff in friendly games, and welcome the chance to wipe out my opponent's fancy new models before they do anything.  In tournaments, I have some misgivings, both because certain FW units are powerful in the extreme, but moreso that most people don't have access to the myriad books that contain all the rules, and can't be expected to know what to do about that Caestus Assault Ram.  Then there are FW FAQs because the rules are often horribly confusing even by GW standards.

On top of this, certain units have different rules in different books.  I think there are three or four different versions of Zarakynel.  The original version had Slaanesh psychic powers from the 5E CSM book.  Now she has an assault D6 shooting attack.

That said, I would go to a tournament that allows FW stuff, and if FW becomes standard, I'll be picking up some Sabre Weapons Batteries.

I won't cover Gargantuan Creatures in this post since they are absolutely apocalypse-only.  I am aware of nine FW Chaos Daemon units that can be fielded in regular games.  If I missed one, call it out.  It's easy to miss something considering the number of books you have to look through.  Here's what I think about four of 'em.

Uraka The Warfiend
Imperial Armour Volume Seven - The Siege of Vraks Part Three

In the Imperial Armour - Apocalypse II, his attacks cause instant death.  But Siege of Vraks III is newer, wherein his attacks only have rending.  I presume Siege of Vraks III is the legal version, right?  Hell if I know.  They still sell both books.  Already you see the trouble with FW.

At 10 points more than a Soul Grinder with Phlegm, he's a non-flying Khorne Daemon Prince with S7 attacks and rending.  Whopee doo!  Even the instant death version is a questionable choice in 6th, where any MC can smash most models to tiny bits.  I wouldn't touch the rending version.  The ID version is very good for killing enemy MCs and Paladins.  But then, so are Screamers and Flamers.

Mamon
Imperial Armour Volume Seven - The Siege of Vraks Part Three

Mamon is also in Apocalypse II, but unlike Uraka, they didn't change anything about him.  Also unlike Uraka, Mamon is very extremely good.  If you also take Epidemius, that is.  Well, he's decent regardless.  T7, W5 and FNP are pretty boss, especially once the Tally hits 15.  He's got a poisoned 2+, AP3 flamer and Noxious Touch to help it get there, too.  All for somewhere between 180 and 190 points.

Blight Drones
Imperial Armour Aeronautica 

It's the only flyer in the Daemon army, and it's a crying shame that it doesn't shoot down other flyers very well.  It's BS2, you see.  Plus it only has 2 HP, so it dies to a bit of windshear.  You take it to pump the tally in an Epidemius list because it gots phlegm and counts as a Nurgle model.

Decimators
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Decimator_mk2.pdf

The 6E update pumped the front armor to 13, which is good because for the exorbitant price, armor 12 was a howler.  You can read the rules yourself, so I shall not summarize.  235 points gets you two butcher cannons, which is about the only source of long-range fire support you can get in the Daemon army.  However, that's 60 points more than a Forgefiend that does the same thing and comes with Daemonforge and It Will Not Die, so the Decimator is quite overpriced as a fire support platform.

It's also overpriced as a close combat platform since the Soul Grinder is comparable for far far less.

You could slap a conversion beamer on there for some S10 blastiness, but that's overpriced, too.  The Soul Burner Petard is an odd choice that I would not ordinarily mention except that I wanted to make a joke about getting hoisted by it, but I couldn't come up with one that wasn't extremely stupid.

You could dedicate it to Nurgle and use it to bump the Tally, I suppose.

Fun Fact: Decimate means to reduce by a tenth, which doesn't sound all that nasty and is something I think ought be done to the cost of the model.  Decimate is one of those words that make you wonder why they needed to invent it.  Sort of like Defenestrate, which means to throw out of a window.  Hopefully, FW will make a Chaos Defenestrator in the near future.  Let's make this happen!

Next time, in Part 2, I will talk about this same subject some more!  Stay tuned!!!!1

On Vacation

I'm off to Colorado for the week.  I shall play no 40k during that time.  So, no posts for you jackaz until I post again.  Which probably won't be until a week from Monday.  Until that time, remember, don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk.

Battal Report!! Winning Without The Good Stuff

So tabling non-Necron opponents in 5 turns or less with the Screamer/Flamer/Fateweaver medley gets old after awhile, so in friendly games I prefer to challenge myself to win with the stuff that ain't so ZOMGOAT awesome.  Sometimes I go too far and get myself tabled, but I'm trying to find the right balance between not beating the tar out of my opponent, and not getting thrashed myself.  It is a delicate balance.

Obviously, Tzeentch has the best stuff in every category except Troops.  Screamers and Flamers are top tier, and I'll throw Fateweaver in there too.  The second tier of good stuff after the top three units above are Fiends, Lords of Change, Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.  They are very good, but can't hang with the top tier.  Third tier is the Great Unclean One, Bloodcrushers, The Blue Scribes and maybe non-Exalted Seeker Chariots, as they can be devastating or useless depending on your opponent.  Everything else in the entire codex is overpriced crap.

So I had me a game against Salamanders and I wanted to not take anything top tier, while also testing out my new IG allies.  A battle report ensues.

My list:

Keeper of Secrets

3x6 Fiends

2x5 Daemonettes

5 Plaguebearers (Mandrakes)

10 Seekers

Soul Grinder, Phlegm

Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Flight, Breath

Company Command Squad, Autocannon

Infantry Platoon

  Platoon Command Squad, Autocannon

  Infantry Squad

  Infantry Squad

Vendetta

Bastion, Quad Gun

Salamanders (Approximate)

Vulkan He'Stan

Master of the Forge, Conversion Beamer

2x 10 Tactical Squads, meltagun and flamer, Drop Pods

10 man Tactical Squad, Lascannon, Flamer

5 TH/SS Assault Terminators, Land Raider Redeemer, Multi-Melta

Dreadnought, Multi-melta/Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Dreadnought, Multi-Melta

Dreadnought, Autocannon

Storm Talon

Aegis Defense Line, Icarus Lascannon

The Keeper, Daemon Prince, Soul Grinder and Vendetta comprise my anti-armor capable of dealing with the Redeemer.  The Fiends can make quick work of the Dreds and Tacticals.  The Prince, Quad Gun and the Vendetta can bring down the Talon.

The game is Crusade with 5 objectives.  Dawn of War deployment.  I roll personal traits for my Keeper and get the one where you get a VP if you win a challenge.  Smoove.  Always roll personal traits with killy HQs in objective games.  

I lose the roll and go first.

Deployment

I place my bastion dead center of my deployment zone.  That there's a mistake. It's a drop pod army. Should have been closer to a corner.  I placed objectives on either side of it so that I could hold one and claim the other late in the game in case my dudes got blowed up.  As per the plan, I put the CCS atop the Bastion on the quad gun, the PCS inside and the two infantry squads behind it ready to go to ground for a 2+.  I knew the drop pods would land right next to the thing, so I probably should have spread them out.

My opponent put his Master of the Forge in the top left corner all by his lonesome to take potshots with his beamer.  He set up a Tactical Squad behind his Aegis and split them into combat squads.  His autocannon and multi-melta dreds set up on his right flank at the forward edge of his deployment zone.  He reserved his Redeemer to use the escort vehicle rule with the Talon.  That was a bad move.  It should have been dead center of his deployment zone ready to react to anything.  He'Stan rode with the Assault Termies.

Daemon Turn 1

My preferred wave comes in.  I drop two squads of Fiends near the Dreds, the Soul Grinder in position to shoot phlegm at the tacticals behind the aegis, a squad of Daemonettes behind the dilapidated bastion and the other squad behind the anachronistic Fantasy tower in the lower right corner to hide and hold the objective.

Between Phlegm and the Autocannons, I manage to kill two marines, I think.  The Icarus shoots interceptor at my SG and glances it.

(Of note, I have two versions of Fiends.  One is the spider with Daemonette torso that is a popular and cheap conversion.  The other version is a Daemonette with a magnetized foot on a converted Tau Gun Drone with Ork Choppa blades so it looks like they're riding bladed discs ala Zelda Twilight Princess.  The recent release of the Seeker Chariot lends credibility to the conversion.  The downside is that I can only field two squads of Daemonettes when I run 18 Fiends because they share models.)

Salamanders Turn 1
 

Two Drop Pods land on either side of my Bastion because I am a dummy and put all my stuff there.  In retrospect, it was a terrible choice on his part because he could have slagged my two squads of Fiends quite easily, putting him at a huge advantage.  The IG stuff is a pretty low priority target that can't put out any damage.

My opponent makes a mistake and places his meltagun marine closest to the bastion in hopes of wrecking it.  He gets killed by my quad gun firing interceptor.  Instead, the Tac squad unloads a flamer and boltguns into the left Infantry Squad killing all but one.  The Dreadnought has a heavy Flamer and Multi Melta, but elects to torch the other infantry squad instead of firing on the Bastion.  Target prioritization matters, folks.  In the end, the two squads are reduced to four and one model remaining, denying him first blood as both pass their morale checks.  That was a significant mistake.  He had plenty of time to kill the guardsmen.  He should have taken a shot at the bastion.  Rockets and Lascannons put two more HP on the Grinder.

Daemon Turn 2

No picture this turn.  Everything comes in except the Seekers.  The Vendetta flies up behind the Dreadnought behind my Bastion and blows it away.  The Bastion is saved!  First blood to me.

The Keeper of Secrets drops at midfield near the Soul Grinder, which walks over and shoots phlegm at the Tacticals next to my bastion killing most of them.

I drop the third squad of Fiends to my left to deal with the Tacticals by my Bastion in case phlegm had missed.

One squad of Fiends attempts to charge both Dreadnoughts, but only reaches one, wrecking it.  The other squad charges the Tacticals behind the aegis, killing four and locking them in combat.

I run what's left of the two infantry squads by the bastion away from the Tacticals.  The squad of four gets to the far side safe and sound but the one dude left in the other squad is going to die.

My Tzeentch Prince scatters way into my left hand corner, but manages to pop a drop pod with Bolt of Tzeentch.

Salamanders Turn 2

The Land Raider Redeemer rolls onto the battlefield with the Storm Talon doing the escort vehicle thing.  The Redeemer toasts the Grinder.  I fire interceptor at the Storm Talon and lock its velocity, which barely matters because it moved at cruising speed.  The Storm Talon, in turn, fires on my Vendetta and locks its velocity, but I only moved 18", so I'm stuck at combat speed for the rest of the game.

His third Drop Pod lands near the fantasy tower, where the Tacticals get out and blow away my Daemonettes.  My Fiends wipe out his Tacticals behind the Aegis, while his Tacticals by my Bastion fire on the Fiends, wounding 1.

The drop pod that contained the Dreadnought kills the one guardsman by himself.

The Master of the Forge had been shooting at my Company Command Squad this entire time, but their 4+ cover save keeps them safe and sound, and the S10 hits don't penetrate.


Daemons Turn 3

The Seekers arrive in the safe corner of the board to my left.  The Vendetta moves up and blows up the third Dreadnought.

Though I should not have, because the Vendetta could have taken care of him next turn, I moved a squad of Fiends toward the Master of the Forge in the corner.   They should have headed back to support the Keeper of Secrets.

Look How I Could Have Pointed My Vendetta Right at the Master of the Forge Next Turn 

The Keeper charges the Tacticals, taking a wound on overwatch and killing four.  Being I10, it is impossible for I4 to get away so they stay locked.

Both squads of Fiends charge the remaining Tacticals behind the Aegis and next to the Bastion, wiping out both squads.

The five man Infantry Squad starts moving toward the objective by the fantasy tower while the PCS and CCS in the bastion shoot at the Drop Pod taking off two hull points

The Daemon Prince swoops forward and shoots at the Storm Talon ineffectually.

Salamanders Turn 3

There Are Two Daemonettes Obscured Behind That Storm Talon

The Redeemer advances.  The Drop Pod shoots my Infantry squad, who sticks around.  The Keeper does not finish off the Tacticals.  I think you should run Keepers with Soporific Musk.  It would have saved her this day.

The Storm Talon zooms to my left and kills three of my Daemonettes hiding behind the dilapidated bastion.  The Storm Talon may be the hardest model in the game to hide from thanks to that damn autocannon on an underslung turret and its high vantage point.  Nevertheless, I have two left to get that fourth objective I'm after.

Daemon Turn 4

The Seekers charge the Drop Pod, putting it out of commission and getting them across the board quickly.  The Fiends and the Daemon Prince move forward to support the Keeper.  I wish I could have diverted the Prince to shoot at the Storm Talon once more, but with my Keeper likely to be charged by Assault Terminators, he's the only thing that can really stop that Redeemer from plowing across my backfield and killing my troops.

For her part, the Keeper finishes off the Tacticals and awaits her fate.  He's out of Troops now.

The Fiends charge and kill the Master of the Forge, leaving my Vendetta nothing to do.  Stupid.  It's flying too slowly to leave the board thanks to locked velocity.

The other two squads move toward the Redeemer to support the Keeper once those termies jump out.  My Infantry Squad takes up position behind the Fantasy tower, claiming that objective, while the two remaining Daemonettes move up and claim one of my opponent's objectives.

Salamanders Turn 4

The Storm Talon leaves the board.  Vulkan and the Assault Terminators jump out of the Redeemer and kill the Keeper, but she takes two Terminators with her.

Let's talk for a moment about playing for the tie.  At this point, my opponent has no troops.  I have First Blood and linebreaker and hold three objectives.  My opponent correctly plans to use the Redeemer and Storm Talon to kill all my troops, but even then, he would only have one point for Slay the Warlord.  He should have kept Vulkan safe inside the Redeemer until Turn 6.  He didn't have enough time to kill all my troops by Turn 5 anyway, so his best play would be to hope the game goes 7 turns, kill as many of my troops as he can, and drop Vulkan off in my deployment zone next to an objective I'm holding to contest and score linebreaker forcing a 2-2 tie.  Instead, he exposed Vulkan, who would certainly be killed by Fiends and Seekers.

Always keep in mind how you can salvage a tie out of a losing situation.

Daemon Turn 5

Two units of Fiends and ten Seeker charge the Terminators, and manage to kill one.  Flamers would not have struggled so.  B-Team, indeed.  The Seekers end up kicked out of combat and consolidate around the tower to charge them from the other side.  They'll never expect it!

Salamanders Turn 5

The Storm Talon flies back on and wipes out the last two Daemonettes.  The Redeemer pushes forward and wipes out the Infantry Squad holding the tower objective.  Now I only have Plaguebearers holding a single objective, and a PCS inside the Bastion.

Vulkan dies.

Daemons Turn 6

The Seekers charge back in and finish off the Terminators.  The PCS exits the bastion to claim the objective, spreading out in vain hope of surviving the Redeemer's fire.  The Daemon Prince tries to smash it to death, but manages only to glance it.

Salamanders Turn 6

The Redeemer kills all but one of the PCS squad members, but he's too far from the objective to hold it.  The Storm Talon fires on the Plaguebearers, who make their saves.  The game ends with me in control of one objective.  I have First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker.  He has Slay the Warlord.

Daemons: 6
Salamanders: 1

Thoughts

With Flamers and Screamers, this is a four turn wipe. 

I think my opponent reserved his Land Raider because he wanted to use the escort craft special rule.  Just because a rule exists, doesn't mean you should use it.  It was a bad move.  To all non-Daemon players reading, get as much firepower onto the battlefield as you can early.  You can't beat me piecemeal.  He had five units on the board at the start of the game.

Land Raiders are rather tough to kill without Screamers and Flamers, and you'd be amazed how tough it can be to down flyers sometimes.  I had three sources of skyfire and couldn't do it this day.  Had my Vendetta not been locked at combat speed, I might have been able to do it.  Instead, it never got to shoot at the Storm Talon.  Oh yeah... Always move 18.5" and never 18".  Being locked at cruising speed is a non-issue, but being stuck at combat speed sucks.

This game was an example of how Daemons can pick an army apart when they are allowed to choose the matchups because nothing was supporting anything else.

How could my opponent have won?  Keep the Drop pods as they were but land both of them next to my Fiends early on.  Had he flamed them with both squads (twin-linked thanks to Vulkan), along with rapid fire and other shooting he could have reduced them to non-factors.  He went for the Bastion instead.  Very poor target priority since the Bastion and all the guardsmen were not a huge threat.

Deploy the Land Raider dead-center so I can't deep strike anything at midfield.  The Assault Terminators would have an 12" threat radius before the charge roll.

Use the Storm Talon, Redeemer and long range firepower to pick off my high threat units, and then my troops and play defensively, only trying to hold one or two objectives, while killing all my weak troops.

That conversion beamer or the Redeemer probably would have dropped my Bastion eventually, so there was no rush to bring it down.  His Icarus lascannon and Storm Talon could have worked on my two flyers, and his Land Raider and Assault terminators presented matchup problems for the Fiends and Keeper, who were my heavy hitters.

Mutual support and target priority are the big takeaways from this one.

New Blog Motto

The old motto "Daemons aren't horrible... You is!" must be retired as it hails from a bygone era where playing Daemons was actually a challenge.  I feel this new motto captures the essence of this brave new world, and saves everybody curious about how to play Daemons a lot of time.

I don't even run Flamers in friendly games anymore, and rarely run Screamers.  It is not fun.

Beating Daemons: Parte Four

I think we've touched on every army except for Tau and Chaos Space Marines.  Best buds, those two.

Taus

Your army has not invented a template weapon!  (Edit: Yes it has!  I just missed it somehow.)  Every time I fight Tau, after the first turn of shooting, I always think to myself "Wow, that's all you got?".  Every time.

Fire Warriors - Super long range, high S shots make them your best source of anti-infantry, and they can help knock my FMCs from the sky at a distance safe enough from which to apologize.  If only you had an open-topped transport to shoot out of like Dark Elfdars, I might be scared of your army.

Kroot - Cheap, S4 rapid fire.  You don't care if they get flamed, and they're decent enough in combat to harm Screamers.  Heck, Kroot Hounds are I5.

Hammerheads - It has a high BS and a blast weapon.  A better choice than Broadsides against Daemons.

Update: Will suggests bringing Crisis Suits with twin-linked flamers and a support system.  Who am I to disagree who cannot locate the flamer entry in the damn summary?

And, Markerlights for the BS boost, of course.  Everything else is just too dang pricy, and too easily killed for me to really consider it a threat.  Unless you sell out on anti-infantry firepower, Tau just don't seem to have enough to weaken Daemons enough to keep them from smacking you around on the second turn.  I recommend bringing Space Marine allies with Null Zone as a force multiplier.  Say, a Librarian, two squads of tacticals in Rhinos with missile launchers and flamers, a Thunderfire Cannon and a Storm Talon.  Yes, that's like half your army, I know.

Chaos Space Marines

Noise Marines - Tons of salvo shots at good range and I5 in combat, so they swing simultaneously to Fiends.  Not too shabby.  The Doom Siren is a big hitter as well.  Heck, so is the Blastmaster.  Then you have the Icon of Excess for FNP, but things are adding up here.

Cultists - Not only do they clog the board, but give them autoguns and heavy stubbers and suddenly I have to worry about your crappy unit.  35 are going to put out a lot of shots, and there's nothing I hate more than a lot of shots.  We're talking 7-8 wounds on Flamers at rapid fire range.

Heldrakes - Give em a Baleflamer, 'nuff said.

Forgefiends - I was debating whether on not these should make the cut.  They'll pump 8 S8 shots into my flying monstrous creatures.  Useful for grounding them.  The plasma version is potentially even more deadly against the right target.  A bit pricy, but definitely a solid choice. 

Havocs - Flakk missiles are terrific against FMCs.  Frag missiles are great against Daemons on the ground.  Krak missiles are solid against Bloodcrushers and MCs on the ground.  Autocannon Havocs are also good, but much cheaper.

Sorcerers - Telepathy can mess me up.  So can Pyromancy.  So can Biomancy...

Rhinos - As with the loyalists, I have to waste a turn of shooting or assault to open your cans.  Do yourself a favor and bring them along, especially if you have Doom Sirens or flamers.

Tested a Seeker Cavalcade

In addition to testing a horde of Plaguebearers Friday, I also proxied two Exalted chariots and a regular chariot.  They made it through the first round of shooting with only two missing hull points thanks to Fateweaver.  The second turn they slammed into an infantry squad, who killed an Alluress when they swung back.  On turn three, one Exalted Chariot was immobilized with a single hull point remaining with the other two missing a single hull point.  The next turn they slammed into a platoon command squad and an infantry squad causing little damage (4d6 left at this point), and getting the last two Alluresses killed.  Then they all got destroyed by lascannons.

That went pretty much how I thought it would.  They killed about a third of their points value, they dropped in effectiveness by 50% every turn and they drew all the lascannon shots.  And frankly, things went pretty darn well as far as saves and penetrating hits went.  For 220 points, they just don't pull their weight like 9 Screamers.  Still, it was quite fun.  I'm going to get more eventually to build my Slaanesh army, but I don't recommend them for competitive play yet.  I need to test them more to come up with some sort of technique to make them work.  That they cannot sweeping advance is not cool.

I only won that game Friday because two squads of Fiends made it through to the end of the battle to wipe my opponent off his objectives, mainly because other stuff drew the fire (Fateweaver, the Chariots, and the 13 PBs).  Other than the Seeker Cavalcade and the large squad of PBs, I had Fateweaver, 18 Fiends, 15 Seekers and a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh with Flight, Pavane, Iron Hide and Musk, who smashed Vulkan He'Stan to death before getting shot to death.

Right now, I'm thinking 3 regular chariots or 2 and 1 exalted might be a better way to go considering how rapidly they lose hull points.  3 regular chariots is a throwaway at 120 points, which, if ignored, should take out at least one thing.

Plaguebearers as a Makeshift Horde Revisited

So at one point I'd considered running a large squad of Plaguebearers to simulate a horde.  I've run it twice now.  The first time, fifteen of them landed atop the Relic without Fateweaver nearby.  Fourteen got obliterated by a Razorwing Jet Fighter shooting two shatterfield missiles.  The one survivor managed to get the Relic inside my bastion to secure me the game two turns later.  The second time I dropped 13 and placed them within Fateweaver's bubble.  A Leman Russ Vanquisher with plasma sponsons dropped 5 plasma templates on them and killed all but four.  They did survive to claim an objective and win me the game, but they hardly fulfilled their intended purpose of tying up the enemy at midfield.  I am sensing a trend here.

The major reason I do not like Plaguebearers as much as Daemonettes is because they can't run and get out of sight.  Since they can't spread out after the drop, they are sitting ducks for blast weapons, and any opponent with two IQ points to rub together to start a fire is going to go for the biggest bang for their buck.

So, my initial impression after testing large squads of Plaguebearers is that they don't work as a horde if your opponent has some good blast weapons, but they do draw a lot of firepower away from your killy stuff, and if protected by Fateweaver, may survive the battle.  If you can drop them later in the game in a spot safe from blasts, do so.

I think I'd rather run more high threat stuff and keep my squads of Daemonettes and IG allies running around like pansies.

Beating Daemons: Parte Tres

We'll do Orks, Guard and Nids today.  Horde armies are well-suited to taking on Daemons because they have a ton of throwaway units that still pack enough of a punch to do some damage to squishy Daemons.

Orks

Shoota Boyz - 30 Shoota boys gets you 20 S4 hits per turn of shooting followed by quite a lot of attacks in assault if you charge, all for a not-so-high price. They are absolutely terrific for knocking down Flying Monstrous Creatures, not that they care all that much that they're hard to hit in the first place.

Trukks - They're almost certain to lose you first blood, but they're fast, and open topped so you can protect 10 shoota boyz inside them, forcing me to shoot or assault them out of the thing.  Then you get to shoot and charge me if you're not pinned.

Burna Boyz - Put them in a trukk, bubble wrap them first turn, then roll up and fry me after I drop.

Lootaz - Potentially devastating.  This is my first target for slashing attacks when I drop my Screamers.  Hopefully, I can run them off the board.

Dakkatjets - The high rate of fire, especially on the Waaagh turn, makes it very mean.  Burna Bommers ain't too bad either.

Gretchin - Terrific speedbumps that, if positioned correctly, can really mess up my plans.

Battlewagons - Pretty much your only defense against Soul Grinders.  Plus they're open-topped, which means tons of shots come out of the thing from anywhere on the dang hull.

Imperial Guard

Anything with flamers, especially Hellhounds, are devastating.  All the barrage artillery pieces are excellent because it gives us nowhere to hide.  Chimeras are great because they have multi-lasers and heavy bolters, plus a bunch of fire points, so put out lots of dakka.  Valkyries are better than Vendettas against us.  Heavy weapons teams are low on points, but high threat if given autocannons.

A mechanized build full of punchy light armor is the way to go.  Troops on foot will get slaughtered.

Tyranids

You have no vehicles to hide in so the best strategy is to flood the board with fearless Termagants to reduce our space to operate and protect your Tervigons while just whittling us down through attrition.  Our monstrous creatures are better than yours in assault because we have invulnerable saves, but we can be easily grounded and overwhelmed by Hormagaunts, and Genestealers, both of which are excellent against Daemons.  Biovores are also terrific.  Keep your synapse creature protected by bubble wrap and there isn't a whole lot we can do to you.

Beating Daemons: Parte Dos

So yesterday I talked about the good units that loyalist marines have fer beatin' us players what plays Daemons.  Let's do Elfdars today!

Eldar can put out a lot of high quality shooting, and their psychic friends are quite the force multiplier.  The specialized nature of their units makes it so that you probably have to take some stuff that is very poor against Daemons (Fire Dragons).  Dark Eldar have poisoned weapons galore and lots of speed, but the fact that their pansy transports get glanced to death in a stiff breeze limits the viability of Venom Spam builds against pretty much everybody.

Eldar:

Farseers - It's not as though anyone runs Eldar without them anyway.  Eldrad is good, too.

Dire Avengers - Guided Bladestorms maketh me to cry.  You're dead or running away the turn after you shoot anyway, so you'd might as well.  Bring an allied Librarian with Null Zone for extra lulz.

Striking Scorpions - Lots of quality attacks at high I.  They're designed to fight hordes, and Daemons are like squishy horde armies without the numbers.

Guardian Jetbikes - Not particularly deadly, but they're so fast that you should be able to get them off to safety.  Even Screamers can't keep up.

Swooping Hawks - Lasblasters have great range and high rate of fire, allowing this squad to stay the hell away, especially if you buy Skyleap.  The grenade blast they use on the deep strike can snipe our troops.  The Sunrifle is mean as well.


Dark Eldar:

Warriors - Cheap with lots of high quality, devastating firepower.  Keep them on Raiders.

Venoms - I can glance them to death with Screamers and Flamers with ease, so they're not as good as they were, but they still give you a lot of bang for your buck.

Beastmasters - Tons if high I attacks that can threaten most stuff in the Daemon army in assault other than Seekers.  Beastmaster packs will slaughter Screamers.

Voidravens/Razorwings - I've had a Razorwing kill 13 of 15 Plaguebearers in one turn with shatterfield missiles.


The trouble Eldar and Dark Eldar have is that their anti-armor stuff is not as versatile as Space Marine stuff.  A Ravager needs to have three Dark Lances because that's one of the best anti-tank options in the army, but it's fairly useless against Daemons except as a screen.  Fire Dragons are great against armor, but don't put out enough shots to deal with Daemons.

The Harliestar is a popular Eldar build, but I think it will get smoked by Flamers to the point that the squad has no hitting power, so beware.

Beating Daemons: Parte Uno

So, my prediction about teh intertubes going nuts about how strong Daemons are now came true.  See here, here and here.

Well, this here's a blog 'bout Daemons, so I'd might as well do my part to help folks out since my once-obscure army is likely to grow in popularity very soon.  You'd better have the tools to deal with it.

So, for almost every army, I shall list the units you have that are really super good against Daemons.  If you are going to a tournament that has Daemon players, you can build an army around these units to fill in any weaknesses.  I shall not bother with Necrons & Grey Knights.  You have all the tools right in front of your face.

We'll start with the non-GK Space Marine variants:

Space Marines

Vulkan He'Stan - Twin-linked flamers and MC thunder hammers on your Assault Terminators.  Daemons want to get in your grill.  Make them pay for it.

Librarians - Null Zone is your bestest friend, and you can always trade it in for Divination like you always do if not playing Daemons.  Gate of Infinity can get you out of jams.  A shame you can't take Null Zone and Divination.

Storm Talon - Its turret-mounted autocannon is deadly to our pansy troops.  It's not easy for us to kill, and is pretty good at knocking down FMCs and blocking charges.  Resist the temptation to hover.  I will kill it if it does.

Land Speeders - Equip them with heavy flamers and meltaguns.  The meltaguns stink against Daemons, but are good against other armies.  You'll only be firing one of the two anyway.  They're fast throwaways that can hunt down our weak troops, especially with Vulkan.  I don't want to have to waste a turn attacking such a cheap model, but I won't have a choice.

Assault Terminators - Charge Screamers with them to buy yourself a couple turns.  Deep strike them.  A Land Raider is too many points and easy meat for Flamers and Screamers. 

Thunderfire Cannon - Put it in the corner and watch the Daemons go poof.

Combat Squadded Tacticals - Keep them in Rhinos and spread out so I can't kill them all.  Bring flamers.  When the Rhino blows up, move both squads in opposite directions and make me choose which one to attack.

Rhinos - They buy you a turn, hold 10 models and are dirt cheap.  Razorbacks are more expensive, don't put out enough shots, and don't protect enough troops.



There's more than enough there to build a solid all-comers list around.  Good stuff in every slot.  For non-vanilla chapters, everything listed above that you are allowed to take plus:



Blood Angels

Storm Raven - Lots of shooting and one of the harder things for Daemons to kill.

Baal Predators - They have lots of mobile dakka, or can sport many flamers.

Vindicator - Because it's Fast, its mobility and large, powerful blast can do a lot of damage to Flamers and troops, while screening.  Don't expect it to survive.

Honestly, since they nerfed furious charge to not boost your initiative, you guys don't scare me at all anymore.

Dark Angels

Deathwing troops with storm shields.  Don't go overboard.  Bring Space Marine allies.

Space Wolves

Wolf Guard - One can bring a heavy flamer.  Any can bring comb-flamers.  They augment your troops nicely.

Grey Hunters - Can't combat squad like Tacticals, but can be made much stronger thanks to Wolf Guard and counter attack.  They can beat Fiends in assault and make Screamers pay a steep price for charging them.

Fenrisian Wolves - Terrific, cheap speed bumps.  They can chase down small squads of troops, and enough of them can severely weaken Screamers (10 unsaved wounds on the charge from 15.).  You can use them to bubble wrap more important stuff.  Against regular armies, run them at transports to glance them to death.  Run with a character on a bike (or thunderwolf) for extra punch.

Black Templars

Neophytes - They allow you to field a somewhat expensive horde that hits harder than most hordes with two weapons in close combat and is fearless in assault.  A couple large squads can really take some time to chew through, even for Bloodcrushers.  Other than that you don't have much.  This has to be a candidate for the easiest army in the game for Daemons to beat.  They even run the wrong way when failing morale checks.

Honestly, regular Marines have better tools than the other, more ostentatious chapters.  Null Zone, alone is hands-down the best tool in the toolbox.  Consider taking vanilla allies with a Librarian, 10 Tacticals in a Rhino with a Flamer, a Storm Talon and Thunderfire cannon.

Fategrinder

Another week brings yet another change to the Daemon codex, at least for me.

With the new FAQ, Daemons are able to field AV 13 walkers, that, if near Fateweaver, may ignore 55% of all glancing/penetrating hits they suffer.  That translates to about 4 S9 hits before one gets through, 11 S7 hits, or 6 S8 (non-melta) hits.  Thus, a triple Soul Grinder army with Fateweaver in the center is quite a rock, and arguably the best choice in the Heavy Support slot when you consider the price tag.  Yes, a Tzeentch Prince still brings skyfire, but it costs a bundle, and is easily killed.

Grinders are susceptible to tarpitting.  To prevent this, run them with Fiends and Screamers, who are fast enough to keep up, and powerful enough in close combat to end it quickly.  Fiends are especially useful because they are good at killing hordes, can hit and run, then charge back in.  With only 6 attacks on the charge apiece, Grinders need to work together, or with support to maximize their offensive output, because 5 attacks at WS 3 doesn't cut it.  You'll just get stuck.  I can't emphasize enough that a Soul Grinder is only at its best when supported by something else.

While still not as powerful as Screamer/Flamer spam, this is a viable option for those who may not have enough models to field that sort of cheese.  Or, if your meta starts gearing up to beat your Flamer/Screamer list, this is a swerve that you could use to turn the tables if you simply can't stand to lose.  The basic strategy is as simple as can be.  Drop on one flank with Grinders and Screamers.  Fateweaver lands behind them and provides a bubble for the first turn salvo.  Then you plow your way across the board.

The weakness, as always, is skyfire.  If you took 6 Grinders with tongue and phlegm, you could handle anti air just by hoping to roll 6's, but who owns that many?  I'm certainly not buying any more.

I tested three SGs against a CSM army this week with no Screamers or Flamers and it went pretty well even without Fateweaver, though my opponent did not have a good list.

UPDATE: Challenge: Design a List

The Battle for Supremacy team tournament is coming up in about 5 weeks and if work allows, Chewie and I will be teaming up.  The rules for army construction:

1000 points per team.  Rulesbook ally rules apply (Desperate, Battle Brothers, etc...).  Must take 1 HQ and 1 Troops per team.  May take up to 2 more troops, 1 FA, 1 Elite and 1 HS per team.  One team member may bring a fortification.

Chewie is playing Guard.  Here is his half of the army:

CCS, Autocannon, Officer of the Fleet
Infantry Platoon
  PCS, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera
  Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, Chimera
  Infantry Squad, Autocannon, Meltagun, Chimera
  Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Lascannons
  Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Autocannons
Vendetta
Basilisk
Bastion, Quad Gun

1000

With the IG models we have between us, we don't feel we can improve on that.  So, given the guidelines above, complement this with Daemons.  I expect the Necron Air Force to be at least 50% represented at this tournament.  I have three lists built so far.

UPDATE

Ok, so none of y'all be talkin' yet, so here are four lists I'm debating between:

1

Lord of Change, Breath, Master of Sorcery
8 Flamers
8 Plaguebearers
7 Screamers
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT, Breath, Flight

999

2

Fateweaver
8 Flamers
5 Daemonettes, Transfixing Gaze
7 Screamers
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT, Gaze, Flight

999

3

Lord of Change, Breath, Master of Sorcery
8 Flamers
5 Daemonettes
9 Screamers
Daemon Prince, MoT, BoT, Breath, Flight

999

4

Fateweaver
9 Flamers
15 Plaguebearers, Noxious Touch
9 Screamers

1000

I am vacillating between 1, 2 and 4.

List 1 is the most balanced.  It has two sources of skyfire, a stout scoring unit that can deep strike downrange, and strong squads of Screamers and Flamers.

List 2 is designed to fight the Necron Air Force first and foremost, with Fateweaver hopefully shrugging off the shots long enough to buy the rest of the army time to take stuff out.   It comes at the expense of durable troops, forcing me to hide my Daemonettes like I usually do and rely on the IG for scoring, which is the plan anyway.  It is pretty much how I usually play Daemons.

List 3 trades Fateweaver for two Screamers.  The theory being that the stuff on the ground can do more damage.  Frankly, I think 2 makes more sense because 7 Screamers is not that much weaker than 9, and Fateweaver can draw a lot of firepower.

List 4 sacrifices skyfire for a rock solid squad of troops.  15 PBs backed by Fateweaver aren't going anywhere, and can tarpit a lot of nastiness.  List 4 is the strongest against everything that isn't the Necron Air Force, and is probably strong enough to survive a full game against it.  As you can see, the only army I'm really worried about is a Necrons/Necrons combo with five or more flyers.  I think we can beat anything else.

I thought about The Blue Scribes, but it just doesn't make sense to take them as an HQ because then I'd have to take a Daemon Prince as the FMC, and it's more points-efficient to satisfy the HQ requirement with something that already does skyfire.  The question is, do I go with two flying MCs for skyfire and extra killiness to offset the plinky nature of my IG allies, or do I drop 15 dead hard PBs in midfield.

So which one y'all like?