New Daemons FAQ

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2750012a_Chaos_Daemons_v1.2.pdf

Only change is that everything in the book (and the update) gets both the Daemon rule from the codex, and the Daemon rule from the BYB.  Everything in the codex has Eternal Warrior, Fear, a 5++ and Fearless.  I had been playing Soul Grinders without the 5++.  Now they are quite a bit tougher.

Soul Grinders: Tongue or Phlegm

With Screamers and Flamers boring the piss out of me, I'm switching to more "fun" stuff in friendly games. After the top tier of Screamers, Flamers, and possibly Fateweaver, the Daemonic B-Team is Fiends, Lords of Change, Great Unclean Ones, Bloodrushers, Daemon Princes, Seeker Chariots and Soul Grinders.  Usable, but you'd be better off taking more stuff from the top tier.  See Feast of Blades results.

So both upgrades to the Soul Grinder cost the same as your basic Screamer.  One is a 24" railgun, and the other is a 36" battle cannon without the ordnance special rule.  Which ought you, the Chaos Daemons player writing a list pick?  Wellsir, it is important to remember that this fellow has 6 S10 attacks upon the occasion of the charge.  In 5th edition, when it wasn't so easy to find the weak points in the armor of enemy vehicles as they careened around the battlefield at breakneck speeds, or moved an inch, this wasn't so reliable.

Now?  Hell, four of those six swings are going to hit.  That's four automatic glances on rear armor 11 or worse, which means everything but a Land Raider is toast.  If you're lucky, the Land Raider is toast too.  Plus, it's fleet so it's probably going to reach something naught to spank on it's second turn on the board.

Unless it gets tarpitted...

Well that kind of just answered the question, didn't it?  In 6th edition, infantry are becoming more popular, and anything you can do to thin out their ranks really helps.  Phlegm grants the Grinder versatility, enabling it to take out both infantry and vehicles just like Screamers and Flamers, but tougher to deep strike.  Phlegm is great against hordes of Necron Warriors that can glance the Grinder to death.   It can thin out those ranks of Orks, who have almost no way to take the grinder out, but can easily tarpit it.  Space Marines out of cover go poof.

Tongue is best used against enemy walkers, because any walker with a power fist is a significant threat to the WS3/I3 Grinder in assault.  For a first turn shot against armor, you're really banking on a less than 50% chance of hitting and penetrating the target.  Anything you fire at after the first turn is probably something you were going to charge anyway, so you don't need the extra S10 hit.

So the choice is clear.  Always buy the phlegm upgrade or none at all.  And remember to vomit on anything that charges your walker.  Also, run Fiends alongside Grinders to de-tarpit them.  They're best buds, those two units.

Battle Report: Daemons vs. Grey Knights, 2000 pts

While it isn't as tough as it used to be, beating Grey Knights with Daemons carries a certain mystique with it.  It has a man bites dog feel to it.  Spectators taunt the GK player with concerned questions about how they're supposed to be good at killing Daemons.  Your wife and pets look at you with new found respect.

So I had me a game against a local GK player this past Friday and figured I'd do a writeup to see what can be learned from it.  The battle is 2,000 points.  5 objectives and Dawn of  War deployment.  I'm still trying out my new IG allies.  Here was my list:

Lord of Change, Breath
7 Bloodcrushers, Fury
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
15 Plaguebearers
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
Company Command Squad, Autocannon, Camo Cloaks
Platoon Command Squad, Autocannon
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Vendetta
Bastion, Quad Gun

1996

Grey Knights (Approximate)

Grand Master Mordrak, 4 Ghost Knights with Daemon Hammers
Librarian, Teleport Homer
Vindicare Assassin
Eversor Assassin
Techmarine, conversion beamer
4 Strike Squads with 2 Psycannons each, 1 Razorback with psybolt ammunition/heavy bolter
2 Nemesis Dreadknights with Greatswords and Heavy Incinerators
1 Psyfleman

Aside from the Callidus and the Ghost Knights, it's got a lot of stuff for Daemons to worry about.  Warp quake galore, lots of shooting, psychic powers, etc.  We both roll personal traits for warlords and each get 6s making our warlords scoring.  He gets a 6 for Grand Strategy and makes both his Dreadknights and his Psyfleman scoring.  So pretty much his entire army except the Razorback and the assassins score.

He rolled Biomancy on psychic powers and didn't get anything useful.  Life leech and the Primaris, I think.  I win the roll and choose to go first so I can place more objectives and dodge a round of warp quake.  I place the Bastion at the forward edge of my deployment zone and place objectives on either side of it.  I stick my third off to one side of the board edge behind a wall.

Deployment

I set up with the CCS on the roof, the PCS inside, one infantry squad behind the bastion and the other on my right flank to move up to the objective behind the wall.  My opponent reserves his Dreadknights and a Strike Squad.  Mordrak is supposed to deep strike first turn, so he's off the table too.

He deploys a SS, his Techmarine and his Vindicare in the center ruins on an objective, which becomes a skyfire nexus.  Crap...  The Techmarine fortifies that ruin.  He hides the Psyfledred behind the concrete tube stack and places the other two strike squads on either flank in cover or out of sight.

He successfully steals the initiative, so it's warp quake for my ass.  No night fighting.

Grey Knights Turn 1

My opponent forgets to DS Mordrak, which is supposed to happen first turn.  He shuffles some stuff around and gets off all three warp quakes, but doesn't leave the safety of the ruins.  Shooting kills one guardsman from the squad on the right and blows up my quad gun.  This does not give him first blood, but makes me a sad panda.

Daemons Turn 1

I have two durable squads and the rest is flimsy.  I want the Crushers, one squad of Flamers, one squad of Screamers and two squads of Daemonettes first wave and get them.  I did it this way because I had 9 units do DS, and I wanted to ensure no matter which I got, I could drop something durable close to midfield.  Since I couldn't drop close thanks to warp quake, there was no point in trying to get Flamers in his face early for first blood.  With my quad gun dead, I wasn't going to get it anyway.

My Flamers dropped behind the ruins on his right flank so they'd be mostly out of sight and could jump in and catch him in a lose lose situation later.  The Crushers successfully drop between the bastion and the wall to control midfield.  They'll head upfield and try to get to the Strike Squads.  The Screamers drop safely and turboboost ahead of the Crushers to force target saturation.  One squad of Daemonettes lands by the objective on the bastion's right.  The other squad mishaps and goes into reserve.

My Infantry Squad advances toward the objective behind the wall in an attempt to get most of the models out of sight.  Shooting strips two hull points from the Razorback and that's it.

Grey Knights Turn 2

Everything but his Strike Squad comes in.  Warp Quake goes off again.  Mordrake drops next to the wall on my right flank to claim that objective.  He and the a few other units blast 7   The Dreadknights land in midfield.  One wipes out my CCS with the heavy incinerator.  First blood to the Grey Knights.  Shooting kills two Crushers, and all but three dudes in the Infantry Squad, who fails morale and falls back 10".  They're at 30% strength so they can rally normally.

His Eversor and SS behind the barrel charge my Screamers.  The Eversor gets a 6 on his bonus attacks and trashes 3 of my Screamers.  The remaining Screamers eat the SS.

Daemon Turn 2

Everything but the Plaguebearers comes in.  The Lord of Change scatters back by the bastion.  I send the Daemonettes off with the Flamers on my left flank to hide behind the ruins while the Flamers blaze a path to that objective.  My Screamers deep strike in and turboboost between the two Dreadknights because they have the favorable matchup against them.  I deep strike my second squad of Flamers 2" away from Mordrak and company rolling a bullseye.  The risk was worth the reward.  Finally, I moved my Vendetta about 30" onto the board to shoot at the Psyfledred and also to block the Dreadknight in the board center from charging my Bloodcrushers, who I planned to have charge the Eversor.  Always look for two-fers like this.  The Infantry Squad rallies.

The Flamers blast Mordrak's squad, killing the Librarian, a Ghost Knight and putting a wound on Mordrak.  The Vendetta pops the Psyfledred.  The Lord of Change puts a wound on the silver DK  The Flamers on the left jump towards the SS and kill two with Warpfire.  They pass morale.

The Crushers fail their charge on the Eversor, but the Screamers kill him anyway after losing another model.  They consolidate behind the oil tank.

Grey Knights Turn 3

The Strike Squad in reserve mishaps and goes right back there.  The Techmarine joins the SS to take advantage of the Skyfire nexus and shoots at my Vendetta.  They penetrate once and get a locked velocity result.  The silver DK flames and charges my Screamers, killing four and losing nary a wound in the process.  The grey DK charges my Crushers, killing one and wounding another.   Mordrak attempts to charge my Flamers, makes saves like a boss, but fails his charge and suffers a wound.

Daemons Turn 3

The Plaguebearers stay out.  Lazy pukes...  The Vendetta flies off the board since it has locked velocity and no targets.  The Lord of Change swoops across the battlefield towards the center ruins with the Vindicare and the Techmarine, killing a dude with a psycannon.  The Flamers on my left jump in and wipe out the leftmost SS.  Now the squad in the middle has to worry about the LoC and the Flamers.  Whatever they don't shoot at will kill them next turn.  The Flamers jump over Mordrak's squad and kill all but Mordrak who has two wounds left.  So I charge him with my Daemonettes, who rend him to death and claim the objective behind the right wall.  The PCS inside the bastion kills the Razorback with glances.  The two Screamers that fought the Eversor charge the grey DK and put two wounds on it before it kills them.  The other DK puts three wounds on the last two screamers, keeping him in combat through my opponent's turn.

Grey Knights Turn 4

The Strike Squad arrives and kills a Flamer.  They're dead next turn.  The Crushers get super lucky when the DK fails two armor saves and keels over.  The silver DK finishes off the last Screamer, but at this point, my opponent will be tabled by turn 5 at the latest, so he concedes. 

Analysis

This is why Daemons and Daemons were sharing the top table at Feast of Blades.  Unless your opponent has a great list, Screamers and Flamers tend to roll over everything.  I'm starting to wonder whether it's worth running a tactics blog for Daemons at this point since there doesn't seem to be much to it anymore besides taking lots of Screamers and Flamers.  We'll see what the update brings come January.

My opponent had too many Dreadknights.  One with a teleporter would have been fine.  The Vindicare is good against many armies, but not Daemons.  The Eversor did a ton of damage to the Screamers and still didn't earn his points back despite performing better than you should expect.  Eversors suck.  Had the Strike Squads all been in Razorbacks, this would have been more challenging.


When you get down to it, Grey Knights are just expensive Space Marines with preferred enemy and storm bolters.  Take away warp quake and they're not even challenging unless the list is extremely well-constructed.

In this game, I was able to keep the matchups in my favor and pick him apart.  Had Mordrak not failed his charge and the Dreadknight not died to the Crushers, this might have gone differently, though it's unlikely I would have lost.  I had a full 6 Flamers running amok in his backfield, as well as a Lord of Change with only one wound and nothing to shoot it out of the sky.  He was going to get his backfield wiped out and his heavy hitters bogged down.

Of note, only one of the two Daemon armies at Feast had Fateweaver.  I find my army is usually so spread out that his reroll isn't getting me much these days as it is, but he is a source of skyfire in addition to his reroll, and if either of them had had Fateweaver in that fight, that one would probably have won the game.

You may get better results taking a cheap HQ like the Blue Scribes and loading up on more Screamers with the points difference.

Me?  I'm trying to figure out how to build a friendly list that doesn't get me or my opponent tabled in five turns or less.  Fiends, Seekers, Crushers, Soul Grinders and a Keeper of Secrets, methinks.

Lists from Feast of Blades

Daemons went 1 and 2 at Feast of Blades.  I must confess disappointment that I didn't qualify, but there's a post on what happened at that somewhere in the archives if you're curious why. 

Feast of Blades format is extremely unusual.  There are three missions: Kill points with table quarters as secondary.  Table quarters with objectives secondary, and Objectives with table quarters secondary.  Everything is scoring except Flyers, which nerfs the Necron air force right off the bat.  That's what I expected at the qualifier, anyway, but my opponent who brought the NAF hadn't actually read the missions, but ended up winning anyway because nobody knew how to deal with that so early into 6th edition.  Both of the top guys said they were worried about flyer heavy lists, but didn't have to face any because the format discouraged it.  Lucky bastards...

Anyway, you won't run into Feast style missions very often, but you can see how heavily they favor Daemons.  Scoring Flamers and Screamers?  Hell yeah!

Here are the top two lists:

Alex Bessinger, First Overall

Headquarters:
HQ1: Herald of Tzeentch
Troops:
Troops1: Horrors x9, Changeling
Troops2: Horrors x8
Troops3: Plaguebearers x7
Troops4: Plaguebearers x5
Elites:
Elite1: Flamers x9
Elite2: Flamers x9
Elite3: Flamers x9
Fast Attack:
F.Attack1: Screamers x9
F.Attack2: Screamers x9
F.Attack3: Screamers x9
Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

Gareth Hunt, Runner up

Headquarters:
HQ1: Fateweaver
HQ2: The Masque
Troops:
Troops1: Plaguebearers x7
Troops2: Plaguebearers x7
Troops3: Plaguebearers x7
Troops4: Plaguebearers x7
Elites:
Elite1: Flamers x9
Elite2: Flamers x9
Elite3: Flamers x9
Fast Attack:
F.Attack1: Screamers x6
F.Attack2: Screamers x6
F.Attack3: Screamers x6
Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

When you have the luxury of not having to worry about flyers, you can ignore flyer defense.  Always read the tournament missions and play to the rules.  I'm curious why they brought so many troops instead of some Fiends.  The only advantage troops have in the Feast format is that they count as full squad strength towards scoring no matter how many models are left in the unit.  Regardless, that many Screamers and Flamers are powerful enough to wipe any normal army, which is why they both made the top table.

I watched the first two turns of the final match.  Bessinger went first, which is a big reason why he won.  He may have made a mistake by not spreading out his force across the board to force mishaps.  Instead, he castled up on his board edge behind his Aegis.  What he thought he was going to need cover from I have no idea.

Hunt went second and didn't get his preferred wave, which was all Flamers.  Had he got that, he probably would have won as his Flamers dropped in and blasted Bessinger's Screamers on the table.  He was right to stack his wave.  In the championship round, you go for the big win.  Bad luck is all. 

Instead he got all his Screamers and Fateweaver.  Instead of cozying up to Fateweaver, he went for slashing attacks, which were minimally effective, and left him open to getting charged and Flamed.  That may have been a mistake.  No matter what Hunt did, Bessinger's 27 Flamers were going to drop in and wreak some havoc.  Just a tough situation.

So congratulations to both gentlemen.  If the internet isn't crying about how OP Flamers and Screamers are yet, they will be soon.  Frankly, I'm inclined to agree.  I mean, a Screamer has 3 S5 attacks with armourbane, so it's death incarnate to vehicles.  It's AP2, so it's also good against most infantry.  It's also a jetbike, so it's super fast.  How about some slashing attacks so they can deal with hordes and get a 4+ cover save?  Why not?  All this for 25 points!  There is nothing comparable in any codex.

Daemons vs. Daemons at Feast of Blades Top Table

Live feed is here:

http://www.feastofblades.com/

This is the shot at the end of round 1.  That's a whole lotta Screamers.  And they're painted the same!

A Reader Tests A Pure Khorne List

Felixcat tested a variation of my sample Khorne themed list with Possessed in place of Bloodcrushers and Heldrakes and sent me this report:

"So I begged and borrowed a few models yesterday to test out a variant of your Khorne list with the models I could get my hands on. I used a deathstar possessed squad in the list - why not, eh.

==Berserk==
1 Bloodthirster 250
1 Dark Apostle; Mark of Khorne; The Murder Sword; Veterans of the Long War 150
20 Possessed; Mark of Khorne, Icon of Wrath, Gift of Mutation 615
3x 20 Chaos Cultists; Mark of Khorne; 2 Flamers 420
10 Bloodletters of Khorne 160
3x 5 Havocs; Mark of Khorne; 4 Autocannons 405
==2000==

I wanted to keep it all Khorne of course. The main list as you can see is CSM (but possessed might as well be daemons. lol). The list is slow. However it has enough models that you can quickly shut of a lot of the table. It's not tricky tactically, lol. The possessed were so good in combat it is scary. I had to keep my Apsostle with the cultists - every challenge was refused. Did not matter. Once a squad was beaten it was just a matter of making sure he killed the sarge to get the bonus boon and move on. The Havoc were a threat and a lost one squad early as my opponent wanted them gone. But once I advanced and the 'Thirster became a nuisance the other two squads went to work all game. So AT was no problem and any juicy insides were easily dealt with. Now I played a meched up SW list with a allied detachment of Tau ( a little unusual  but Tau shooting is scary). Was a close game and a lot of fun.  I'm not sure the list isn't cheese by any stretch but it can handle a decent amount of return dakka, take the casualties and retaliate turns three onward with force.

I'll stick with my own Nurgle list ... I prefer the flexibility and I now know its nuances but this list is a lot of fun to play."

Felixcat won his game 20-16, but said it was a tailor made matchup, and that the list would be stronger without Daemons.  Pure Khorne is very tough to make work.

How come all y'all play Nurgle anyway?

Plaguebearers as a Mock Horde

The duel I had on Saturday with the horde of Plaguebearers opened my eyes to certain possibilities that I hadn't previously considered.  For example, one thing currently in vogue is some sort of fearless horde that can control midfield while being extremely difficult to remove.  Usually, this consists of a horde of Orks or Guardsmen.  Daemons, of course can't field a horde like most armies can, but we can do the same thing with less.

Consider, Plaguebearers backed up by Fateweaver have three 33% chances to ignore a wound as long as it is not S10.  This translates to you opponent needing to deal a little more than 3 wounds to the unit for it to suffer a casualty.  All we are looking for in this case is a tarpit to draw fire away from our heavy hitters so they can survive long enough to wipe the enemy.

Dropping 15 Plaguebearers with Fateweaver right in front of your foe forces them to make decisions.  Do they shoot Fateweaver and get held up the following turn, or do they shoot the Plaguebearers?  Obviously, they have to shoot Fateweaver.  If he draws all the fire, it frees up the Plaguebearers to charge multiple units and tie things up during your next turn, while your Screamers and Flamers pick things off piecemeal.

Up until now, I had only thought about Daemon troops as small scoring units to squat on objectives, and stay hidden and I still have Daemonettes for that, but I think Plaguebearers have an entirely different role now in 6th edition.  A 5 man squad is slow and not all that durable.  15 is a pain in the ass to remove as evidenced by the battle report below.

Taking a large squad with Fateweaver is a viable tactic to buy you time on that critical turn 2, especially if it's an open board with nowhere to hide.

Kenny Boucher may have done something similar to this at Beakycon, but I haven't found his list posted anywhere.

Sample List:

Fateweaver
15 Plaguebearers
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
6 Flamers

CCS, Autocannon, Officer of the Fleet
PCS, Autocannon
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Bastion, Quad Gun
Vendetta
Hydra, Camo-netting

1997

Battle Report: Daemons vs. Daemons Special

Good evening Mr. and Mrs. America from border to border and coast to coast and to all ships at sea.  Today we have some Daemon on Daemon action.  We have my noble, kind and generous Tzeentch Daemons (with an assist from Slaanesh) squaring off against the dastardly and discourteous forces of Nurgle.  This was a small four man tournament we had over the weekend, so no big deal, but the final battle was interesting, so I here present it to you commercial-free.  Rules were 1500 points, no allies, which we all thought was gay.

My list:

Fateweaver

3x5 Flamers

4x5 Daemonettes

2x6 Screamers

Tzeentch Prince, Wings, Breath, Bolt MoS

His list (I am only guessing based on what I saw in action.):

Epidemius (Warlord)

Great Unclean One, Aura of Decay

2x Nurgle Princes with Wings and Aura of Decay

3x18 (approximately) Plaguebearers

IT'S THE UNSTOPPABLE FORCE!!! VERSUS!!! THE IMMOVABLE OBJECT!!!  

The mission is kill points.  I have the advantage of speed and power.  He has only 7 kill points to give up.  My 4 squads of Daemonettes fragile while none of his units are easy outs.  I have the advantage until and unless the tally hits 15, then I'm sunk (Feel No Pain on a 3+ for those who don't know).  I have to use my speed and Fateweaver rerolls to offset his toughness and FNP.  I need to stay out of assault as much as possible and go for the home run with Flamers.  We both roll strategic warlord traits.  I got the one that subtracts one from his reserve rolls.  He gets squat.  Go me!  He wins the roll and chooses to go first.  A wise move.

Deployment

 

Haha.  His deployment sucks...

Nurgle Turn 1

  

He wants the wave with the GUO, one Prince and one PB squad.  He gets Epidemius, a DP and two PB squads.  They drop on his side of the board after scatters.  He should have aimed closer to the center of the board.  Big mistake.  I have tons of space to drop and stay away now.  

Tzeentch Turn 1

  

My preferred wave drops comfortably away from him and spreads out.  I put 1x Flamers and 1x Screamers in wave one with Fatey and 2x Flamers 1x Screamers with the DP so in case I got the wrong wave, it would be strong regardless.  2x Daemonettes in each wave.  I want to wait for more Flamers to drop and hop from squad to squad obliterating them.  

Nurgle Turn 2

 

Another squad of PBs drops on my right flank, but his GUO and second Prince stay out.  The two squads of PBs shamble towards my force.

Tzeentch Turn 2

I get one squad of Flamers and both my Daemonettes in reserve.  The Flamers drop at the top right while the Daemonettes drop in the far corners to keep from getting killed.  You can't see how I set it up, but the Flamers jumped forward toward the top squad of PBs while the Screamers positioned themselves between the two squads waiting to see how the template attacks went.  Fateweaver flew into support of both units.  The Flamers and Fateweaver managed to kill all but four of the upper PB squad.  I could either charge the big squad of PBs tying them up with my Screamers, or wipe out the last four in the top squad.  If I charge the top squad of PBs, the big squad of PBs charges my Flamers and beats them down.  So I charge the big squad figuring I could hold them long enough to get my other Screamers in to finish the fight.  I kill a few PBs and take a wound in return.  We both need 4's to hit and wound and have 5+/5+ saves.  I should win eventually thanks to higher I.

Nurgle Turn 3

His GUO arrives and lands right by my Daemonettes in the bottom corner.  One of them will not make it.  Because I charged his big PB squad, he is forced to charge me with his four PBs and his Daemon Prince simultaneously.  If he charges with only one, it dies and the Flamers kill the other thing next turn.  So his Prince dies on the charge (first blood to me) while the four PBs tie up the Flamers until his bigger squad arrives to finish off the fight.  One Flamer dies along with a Screamer putting the tally at 2.

Tzeentch 2
Nurgle 0

Tzeentch Turn 3

The rest of my force arrives deep striking in the top right corner, which is still safe.  I drop one squad of Daemonettes in the top left corner for linebreaker, which you can't see.  I can do pretty much nothing but run.  My Flamers that aren't in combat are too far to flame Epidemius's squad and everything else is in combat.  The Daemonettes trapped in the lower right corner up there go separate ways, but I leave the closer squad close enough to make him want to charge them instead of the one that runs toward my army.  If he wants to kill the squad in the corner, the GUO will be out of the game.  The Screamers continue to munch on PBs waiting for the Daemonettes and other Screamers to charge next turn.  The Flamers manage to kill one of the four PBs.  The tally is still at 2.


Nurgle Turn 4

I forgot to take a picture at the end of this turn.  Sorry.  His Prince deep strikes to the lower left of board center to position for a charge on one of my squads of Daemonettes next turn.  His GUO charges my Daemonettes in the corner, wiping them out.  Epidemius and his flunkies charged the four Flamers, killing two.  I wished he'd wiped them out.  Now I lose another turn of shooting.  Tally is at 9.

Tzeentch 2
Nurgle 1

Tzeentch Turn 4

I am very concerned that my two Flamers are going to die on my turn allowing him to charge his squad again.  The second squad of Screamers and the Daemonettes charge the right squad of PBs, leaving two alive.  Fateweaver and the Prince fly toward his prince to save the Daemonettes, but fail to wound him.  The two remaining Flamers manage to survive taking a single wound thanks to some boss saving throws.  They kill one more of the PBs from the squad that had 3 left.

 Nurgle Turn 5

The Daemon Prince charges my Daemonettes killing two.  The two Flamers die.  The Daemonettes, and 11 Screamers finish off the last two PBs they've been trying to kill the entire game.  The Tally is at 13.

Tzeentch 3
Nurgle 2

Tzeentch Turn 5
 

The two squads of Flamers that had waited the entire game to do something jump in and blast the crap out of Epidemius's squad, reducing it to a third of its strength.  My Prince charges his and declares a challenge to keep the Daemonettes from taking casualties and pumping the tally to 15.  My Screamers charge his squad of two Plaguebearers, wiping them out.  At this point, we're out of time in the round.  Of course, I had my fourth squad of Daemonettes safe in the top left corner the entire game, so we both have linebreaker.  I had first blood.  The Tally stopped at 13.

Final Score

Tzeentch 5
Nurgle 3

Clean living prevails.

Despite only losing 13 models, this was a close game.  He made a mistake not dropping in the board center on the first turn.  I made a huge mistake trying to flame his Plaguebearers to death in turn 2.  I should have drawn everything towards me and hit it all at once on Turn 3 or 4.  I'm usually more cautious.

Despite my mistake, he didn't have enough time to get another kill point, and there was no way he could have prevented me from killing the last two Plaguebearers to get a 4-3 victory.  I could have played a lot better, but I've never played against anything like this before.  I underestimated how durable Plaguebearers are in large squads.  They ignore 56% of all wounds, so even Flamers will have trouble one-shotting them.

Fateweaver was critical keeping the odds of the brawl between the Screamers and the Plaguebearers in my favor.  Without the reroll, they would have lost through attrition instead of the other way around.

All he had left at the end was a Daemon Prince in a duel with mine, which I would have won, a GUO crawling back towards the fight, and Epidemius's squad, who would have been eaten by Screamers.  I couldn't have tabled him by turn 7, but victory was assured.

His list is not something I would run, but I've seen him face the other dudes at the FLGS with it and it beats the face of anything that doesn't have a ton of flyers.  It's just harder than a coffin nail.  He runs Plague Marines in his normal army, but the rules of this tourney put the kibosh on that.

So, an imperfect battle, but definitely an interesting one because I've never seen anything like this before.  I got a Seeker Chariot and some pink paint with my winnings!  Not too shabby for 15 bucks.  I'm on my way to that Slaanesh Army!  3 Exalted Chariots, 3 Forgefiends, 4 Rhinos, a Heldrake and a bunch of marines to go!

Mono God Lists: Nurgle

I don't get Nurgle's popularity, but there are many folks who like the idea of lurching inexorably forward and flinging poo at the enemy.  I find Nurgle so unappealing that I bought 20 Mandrakes to use as stand-ins during 5th edition.  So I am biased, but I can recognize that mono-Nurgle works and works well.

On the Daemon side, I think Nurgle stuff is sub-par across the board.  Unless and until, that is, Epidemius gets the tally up.  I avoid Nurgle like the plague (Get it?) but there is another Daemon player at my FLGS who runs a Nurgle-only Epidemius Daemon list, and it is a rock.  Not only is it a rock, it is a rock which he uses to beat people's faces.  I have seen it in action many times.  The Tally is no joke, and most normal armies don't have the tools to deal with it.  This is a force multiplier that must be taken advantage of.

Nurgle marines are better at getting the tally up than Nurgle Daemons seeing as how they can shoot first turn.  Since we need Epidemius on the table first turn, we take him in a unit of Plaguebearers and nothing else.  I recognize that it is not clear whether or not you can have a wave of zero Daemon units, but I say a wave that has nothing in it is not a wave. 

Since we need Nurgle models to make the tally climb, that pretty much means we must minimize our use of vehicles.  In order to do this while retaining anti-air capability, we need Nurgle Havocs and Nurgle Marines manning quad guns.  I want two of each.  Havocs are awesome fire support, but high priority targets that must be kept safe.  I very much like the idea of keeping them inside a bastion and firing out the fire points while the champion fires the heavy bolter.  Put a squad of marines on the roof with the quad gun and you're all set with Nurgle fire support at long range with tremendous resilience.

Chaos Lord, Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Melta bombs, Combi melta, Gift of Mutation
Sorcerer, Lvl 3, Mark of Nurgle, Spell Familiar, Combi-melta
5 Chaos Space Marines, Veterans of the Long War, Mark of Nurgle
5 Chaos Space Marines, Veterans of the Long War, Mark of Nurgle
27 Cultists, Mark of Nurgle, 2 Heavy stubbers
9 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, Dozer Blade

6 Bikers, Mark of Nurgle, 2 Meltaguns, Combi flamer, Melta bombs

5 Havocs, Mark of Nurgle, 4 Flakk missile launchers

5 Havocs, Mark of Nurgle, 4 Flakk missile launchers

Epidemius
7 Plaguebearers
Bastion, Quad Gun
Bastion, Quad Gun

1999

This is a modified version of an illegal list I made a few days back because it didn't include two HQs.  The Lord rides with the Bikers and the Sorcerer in the Rhino with the Plague Marines.  I'd probably give him Pyromancy, but it would depend on the opponent.  The Havocs sit inside the bastions while the CSMs sit on the roof and shoot the quad gun.  Those three squads have the job of anti-armor early in the game and and anti-personnel once the tally gets where it needs to be.  Epidemius deep strikes near the bastions first turn.  If it looks like his unit might be in trouble, they switch places with the CSM's on the roof and Epidemius takes over the quad gun.  The tally should climb like nobody bidness.

Every game you play will be a race for your opponent to kill your bastions before the tally hits 15.  Once that happens, it's GG as long as you protect Epidemius.

Without ever playtesting it, I'm going to go ahead and declare this the most powerful CSM list you can possibly make right here and now because I am an asshole.  Just watch out for Tzeentch's Flamers, because they are the honey badger to your vaunted resilience until the tally hits 15.

I know we've got a bunch of Nurgle fans out there.  Post up your lists.

Mono God Lists: Tzeentch

Aside from Daemonettes as my troops, I pretty much run mono-Tzeentch as it is, so this one seems like it should be pretty easy.  However, it doesn't turn out that way.  In my opinion, Tzeentch Daemons are vastly more powerful than Tzeentch Marines, and are the only faction of the four in which I would choose Daemons as my primary detachment.  Flamers are absurdly effective against infantry and not bad against vehicles while Screamers are death incarnate to vehicles while being pretty good against infantry.  Fateweaver keeps everything alive longer, draws fire and provides fire suppport.  Tzeentch Princes bring skyfire.  A pity that Horrors aren't so good.

On the CSM side, Thousand Sons seem to be a dud.  While I don't think they're so terrible, they don't seem quite good enough to justify their points.  185 points for 5 in a Rhino is downright painful.  The Tzeentch perk doesn't seem justifiable on marines or cultists.  Some like the idea of putting Tzeentch Havocs on a landing pad for a 3++, but I just don't see that as being a great use of points.  In fact, the only Tzeentch unit in the entire CSM codex that I think is pretty darn good is Tzeentch Terminators, who are almost as good as assault terminators and can also shoot.  In my opinion, Tzeentch Terminators are best all-around assault unit in the codex, which is bizarre.  Just how Tzeentch would like it.

Here's the thing, Tzeentch Terminators don't actually bring much to a Tzeentch Daemon army that it needs, so why bother?  So the problem is figuring out what Tzeentch marines really bring to a Tzeentch Daemon army when it's already so powerful?  In earlier posts, my answer was little that I couldn't get better from Imperial Guard.  That hasn't changed and I still recommend IG if you're running Daemons primary.

Just the same, Tzeentch marines bring psykers, skyfire and numbers.  None of this is cheap, however. Even though a Tzeentch cultist seems like a waste of a point (it is), if you must be fluffy, they can do the horde thing for you.  Of course, if you run cultists, you would really want an Apostle of Tzeentch in there with a 3++ save and a Stick of Mighty Beating, but then you can't have a Sorcerer.

If you want a Sorcerer, a non-Tzeentch Sorcerer would be more useful because he wouldn't have to take a crappy Tzeentch power that does pretty much what the rest of your army already does fine. You want a Sorcerer to buff your Daemons, but you need to get him upfield to be in range to cast blessings on your Daemons, which means he has to use bike, a jump pack or be in terminator armor because you can't use blessings on other units from inside a Rhino.  If he's on a bike or jumping, you have to take bikers, so you can't take a Heldrake.  Terminators it is.  Except I don't need expensive Terminators...  I guess I could take a flying Tzeentch Daemon Prince, but that's overpriced...

As you can see from the tradeoffs, it's tough to optimize Tzeentch stuff while keeping with the theme. There is more that I would like to take than I can squeeze in.  I can't have psychic powers and numbers and skyfire and still have a powerful Tzeentch Daemon army.  I choose skyfire in the form of the Heldrake.  I'll also take numbers.  Screw psychic powers.  They're unreliable, and the army is potent enough without them.  I've certainly never needed them to win before.

Fateweaver
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt, Changeling
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt 
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze, Master of Sorcery
Dark Apostle, MoT, Power Axe
Heldrake
29 Cultists, MoT 3 Heavy Stubbers

1999

I don't like this list at all, but I couldn't build one that I did like.  The cultists should be unmarked.  The Horrors should be Daemonettes.  The Heldrake should be a Vendetta.  You catch my drift.  Tzeentch marines are expensive and less powerful than Tzeentch Daemons.  This is why I picked IG for allies because they complement Tzeentch Daemons so much better.  I only have three sources of skyfire, none of which are great.  I'd rather have three squads of flamers.  Horrors are way too expensive for 5 models eating up 95 points per unit.

I think this is way better:

Fateweaver
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt, Changeling
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt
5 Pink Horrors, Bolt 
8 Screamers
8 Screamers
6 Flamers, Pyrocaster
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze, Master of Sorcery
Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze, Master of Sorcery

1997

Yup, that's much stronger.  More Flamers, bigger Screamer squads.  Almost as much skyfire, but on a versatile platform, Fateweaver can protect everything.  Not as good as a Daemon/IG army, but durn close.  I would point out that for the price of those four squads of Horrors, I could have five squads of Daemonettes, plus 35 points left over.  More scoring=better.  Especially when the rest of the army is so nasty powerful.

What about Tzeentch Marines Primary?  Gonna be a small army.  I tried and couldn't make a good list.  185 points for 5 TSons in a Rhino makes me cry.  Tzeentch cultists are silly.  Tzeentch Marines are also silly.  I don't think it works.  Perhaps one of y'all can do it.  Post it up if you got one.

Mono-God Lists: Slaanesh

It's tough to take a Slaanesh army seriously, which is part of why I like it.  Slaanesh is all about speed, which is more my style than Khorne.  Speed also happens to be critical in 6th edition.  Even though Screamers are better than Fiends by leaps and bounds, Fiends are still pretty good.  Noise Marines are also pretty good.  I still say Daemonettes are the best Daemon troops choice.  The crew in pink has stuff going for it.

Slaanesh is a horde-slayer army.  Noise Marines with sonic blasters are like the shooty version of Seekers with salvo shots that ignore cover.  So, if you play Slaanesh, your tactic is to roll a bunch of dice and hope stuff gets through the armor save while gallivanting swiftly around the battlefield and dancing a sprightly jig.

A Slaanesh army needs to be mobile because it isn't very tough, so it should make copious use of Rhinos.  Fortunately, Noise Marines in a Rhino are awesome because the champ can take a Doom Siren and fire it out the top hatch.  Add a havoc launcher to the rhino, and suddenly your crappy transport is an anti-infantry force to be reckoned with, able to slay MEQ and hordes with extreme prejudice.

Slaanesh is the most versatile of the four mono-forces as you can get a good balance between shooting and assault, or go one or the other.  Slaanesh pyschic powers are the best of the lot, so you can build an army around that too.  Slaanesh CSM assault specialists don't have much to beat things like Assault Termies, however.  Fiends and Seeker Cavalcades can do it with support, but you're better off shooting them with a ton of shots until they die.

Other than Fiends and Daemonettes, Slaanesh Daemons aren't that good, so if you want a combined force, you need to build your CSMs to complement what Slaanesh Daemons can bring to the table.  All Slaanesh Daemon HQ choices are not-so-hot, but I think a Herald with an Exalted Chariot that she may or may not ride can set up a very powerful mechanized force.  I'm not high on Seeker Chariots, but when combined with mechanized CSMs, they provide a high threat to the opponent and force them to make choices with their anti-tank firepower.

Slaanesh cultists don't make much sense because I4 won't help them beat anything in close combat once they get close enough to fight after the shooting they'll have to endure.  I like Noise Marines over Slaanesh CSMs because they are fearless, and because they rock from inside their Rhinos (Get it?).  However, Slaanesh CSMs can bring special weapons so they aren't a bad choice either, though the best reason to take the MoS is to take the Icon, and that gets expensive.

For the anti-air piece, Slaanesh Havocs make even less sense than Khorne Havocs unless you take a whole bunch with the Icon of Excess and park them behind an Aegis, and that adds up for a squad that is totally expendable.  I prefer to keep with the whole volume of shots thing and take some Forgefiends.  While 8 S8 shots is not enough to handle flyers, 24 certainly is.  Plus, if you couple Forgefiends with a Seeker Cavalcade and a bunch of Noise Marine Rhinos, your opponent has a lot of armor to deal with.  Let's throw in a Heldrake too.

After a lot of jiggering, I came up with a solid list I really want to play which will form the basis of my CSM army once I decide start one:

Lord, MoS, Burning Brand of Skalathrax
5 Chaos Space Marines, Mark of Slaanesh, Meltagun, Rhino, Havoc Launcher
5 Noise Marines, Doom Siren, Rhino, Havoc Launcher
5 Noise Marines, Doom Siren, Rhino, Havoc Launcher
5 Noise Marines, Doom Siren, Rhino, Havoc Launcher
Heldrake
Forgefiend
Forgefiend
Forgefiend
Herald of Slaanesh, Exalted Chariot
5 Daemonettes
6 Fiends
Seeker Cavalcade, 2 Exalted Seeker Chariots, 1 Seeker Chariot

1998

It turned out Noise Mariney, but doesn't have sonic blasters, which I find odd, but I like the idea of keeping my scoring units safe in their metal bawkses while still being able to dish out some hurt as they push to midfield.  I didn't bring an Icon of Excess either.  I wanted to, but you end up over 200 points for a squad of a size large enough to make it worth taking if you buy the sodding thing, and they're just not that powerful.  157 points for five Noise Marines and a Doom Siren in a Havoc Rhino is tits (Get it?).  5 Tacticals in a Razorback with a twin-linked heavy flamer is 155 with nothing else.  This setup is way better because you get the twin linked bolter, the havoc launcher and an extra firepoint for almost the same price.  Plus you're better on foot than 5 tacticals.

I'd rather have a second meltagun than the MoS on the CSM squad, but this is a theme list, so no unmarked troops allowed!  Actually, if I were really going to run this, that's what I'd do since I'd run the Lord in their Rhino to give them fearless and allow them to shoot anti-infantry or anti-armor.  I'll just pretend they're Slaanesh neophytes who need some more body piercings before they earn their mark.

I'd be very excited about playing this list because it's super fast, and it has lots of balance between anti-tank and anti-infantry.  Even the Noise Marines can do anti-tank to some extent thanks to Krak Grenades.  The army has 12 light armored vehicles, which is a whole lot to deal with, and my scoring units are fearless.

I'd love to get a Slaanesh psyker on a steed with some bikers in there to outflank meltaguns, but there wasn't room, alas.  In fact, there's a whole bunch of different ways I think a Slaanesh list could work.  Anyway, I think this list is awesome and I want to run out and buy all the models for it right now so I can have a big pink army full of foppish dandies flying all over the place.  Perhaps one day.

Mono-God Lists: Khorne

I Use Teh Saem Picture Two Posts In A Row!!!!!!!

Khorne gots some problems.  And by some, I mean a whole many lot.  Given the general bloody-mindedness of the whole theme, the point is to be all up in your opponent's grill poking them in the eye and boosting their radios.  However, Khorne's flunkies are also pretty slow, so they ain't very good at getting to do what they're supposed to.  This is made even worse by the improvements to shooting at the expense of assault overall, as well as the inability to disembark and charge from Rhinos, the loss of +1 I from Furious Charge, the fact that nothing of Khorne's really stands up well against Assault Terminators, the lack of shooting hinders anti-air defense, the list goes on.

What a Khorne list really needs is some storm shields.  Khorne termies can't go toe to toe with bog standard loyalist Assault Terminators, so if you run into a Deathwing list while running your CC-oriented Khorne meanies, you're pretty much sunk because even though Khorne is the god of punches to the face, his followers are bested in close combat by assault specialists in almost every loyalist army.  And let's not even get into what Incubi, Harlequins, Wraiths and Genestealers will do to them.  This is probably why they're so angry.

So, Khorne allows you to make a list that is good in assault against units that aren't that good in assault.  Most units aren't these days so that's ok, I guess, but you still have to build around the heretofore-discussed shortcomings.  Specifically, how do you deal with assault terminators, flyers and armor, and how on earth do you get into assault quickly in the first place?

As far as Khorne Daemons go, it's pretty clear that they're a mere shadow of their former selves.  Nobody likes Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers lost AP2 and are slow, everybody hates Khorne Daemon Princes, Flesh Hounds are terrible, and while Bloodthirsters seem to still be popular, I think they're way too expensive for what they do now.  Know what?  I'm still taking some Khorne Daemons because they have a role in a Khorne army.

The Bloodthirster, while being crappy anti-air, is still anti-air and can support a charge like few other models because Captain Insano shows no mercy.  Bloodletters can deep strike down range and hold objectives.  It clashes with their inability to shoot, but they can charge squatters off objectives if given proper support.  From a Bloodthirster, for example.  Bloodcrushers are slow and whatnot, but still hog a lot of board space and demand attention, while being slightly more effective against most things than Chaos termies with power fists for the same price.  They can glance vehicles to death, and beat almost anything that is not wearing 2+ armor.

On the CSM side, I have trouble with Berserkers and Khorne CSMs.  If you put them on foot, they have to footslog it, which means they'll die if you take a small squad or cost a heap ton of points if you take a large squad.  If you put them in a Rhino, you can't get out of the damn thing and charge on the same turn, so you must to flat out turn 1, get out turn 2 and charge turn 3.  You could bring along a Land Raider, but I used one of these this past Sunday in a friendly team game and they're not good at all without Power of the Machine spirit to fire the second lascannon.  It's such a massive point sink to only be able to shoot one lascannon reliably.  So when it comes to the debate between Khorne CSMs vs. Berserkers I say da hell wid both of them.  They're not even stellar assault specialists as it is.  After the first round of combat, they're just swinging twice each with no AP anyway.

The Mark of Khorne grants you a heap big amount of attacks on the charge, so why not a make it a really great big heap?  I like Khorne cultists better than Khorne marines.  Let's say you take 30 with pistols and CCWs and a Khorne Apostle.  You have fearless, rage, hatred and counterattack.  If that unit charges anything, it's going to die.  One solution to assault terminators is sheer volume of dice, and this brings it like few other units.  A mere 20 cultists with an Apostle should kill 3 terminators on the charge, (worth exactly the same number of points as 20 Khorne cultists, I might point out.) plus whatever the Apostle kills.  On top of this, in this age of hordes and board control, several units of Khorne cultists makes for one nasty horde.  Cultists can footslog it across the board and soak up the damage.  I think that's just fine.

So my troops are going to consist of Cultists and Bloodletters.  My HQ is a Dark Apostle.  Now I need the anti-air and anti-mech piece.

The three sources of anti-air in the CSM dex are Havocs, Heldrakes and hordes of Cultists.  I've got one of those.  Khorne Havocs are both unfluffy and a silly choice, so forget that.  That leaves Heldrakes.  Not exactly Khorne, per-se, but their ability to vector strike is right in his wheelhouse, so good enough.  I'll take two with hades autocannons plus a Bloodthirster and hope all goes well.  Now I need something that can get where it needs to be and pop that one thing that absolutely must die.  I can go with Chosen in a Rhino, Khorne Bikers or Raptors for this job.  I like Khorne Raptors because they can deep strike two meltaguns and a combi-melta.  I also like Bikers because they can pop transports and charge the occupants, so both are decent choices.

So here's my list:

Dark Apostle, MoK, Gift of Mutation, Axe of Blind Fury
31 Cultists, MoK, 3 Flamers
20 Cultists, MoK, 2 Flamers
20 Cultists, MoK, 2 Flamers
8 Bikers, 2 Meltaguns, Combi-melta, MoK
Heldrake
Heldrake
Bloodthirster, Blessing of the Blood God
6 Bloodcrushers, Fury of Khorne
9 Bloodletters
9 Bloodletters

1998

Between the Cultists and the Crushers, I can dominate the board while the rest of the stuff picks off targets on the peripherals.  The Dark Apostle is a beast in close combat with hatred offsetting the WS penalty from the axe in the first round and he can move from one blob to another if the one he starts in gets too small.  All three blobs must advance together to take advantage of the Apostle's leadership.  All of the tools are in this list.  I don't think it's super great because Khorne just isn't very good right now, but it has everything you need to get the job done whilst pleasing the Blood God.

Mono-God Lists

Khorne Sits Furiously Upon His Throne

Many folks who play Chaos find an affinity for one of the four powers for one reason or another.  I like Slaanesh because the overt hedonism he represents is a highly rational choice to make in a galaxy that is utterly devoid of hope.  I also like Tzeentch because he's completely screwy.  Khorne and Nurgle both espouse a nihilistic worldview that is just as rational as Slaanesh's hedonism in a hopeless world, but lack panache and, shall we say, appeal.  Thus, my preferred lists are usually a Tzeentch/Slaanesh combo.  It just so happens that that works well right now, so lucky me. 

With Chaos Space Marines out, the potential for competitive mono-god themed lists exists.  Certain marks don't always represent the optimum choice for various units (Khorne Havocs?  Tzeentch CSMs?), but I think the tools are all there to create a list that can handle all comers using the Daemon and CSM codexes as they currently sit.  Certainly, Tzeentch is pretty easy to do because Tzeentch Daemons are super powerful these days, and Nurgle with Epidemius is a no brainer, but I think Slaanesh and Khorne can get the job done as well.  Although Khorne is sure making me think long and hard about it.

So, for all you monotheists out there, in the coming days I'll be discussing list building that allows you to successfully handle anything thrown your way using your favoritest god.

The Competitive Transition From 5th To 6th

Daemons were considered lousy in 5th edition because the best armies were usually built around lots of transports with heavy weapons, and Daemons ain't got none.  Transports worked because vehicles could contest objectives, or even score, and offered protection to the scoring units inside, all while being extremely mobile, and fairly difficult to kill in assault.

6th edition is seeing transports relegated to mere tools. Merely a conveyance to get you where you're going.  Now the game is all about scoring.  Decent scoring units should have at least two of these qualities: cheap, effective, durable, mobile, or numerous.  The best ones have several.  A GK Strike Squad is effective because it can take two psycannons and a razorback and combat squad half the unit.  They are durable and mobile thanks to the transport.  They are neither numerous, nor cheap.

Daemonettes are mobile, but not cheap, numerous, effective or durable.

Plaguebearers are somewhat durable, and possibly effective in an Epidemius list, but usually they have nothing going for them but durability.  Horrors, Bloodletters and Nurglings have none of those qualities.  A competitive Daemon list has to compensate for the lack of quality scoring that a lot of other armies can field, especially in this age of allies.

Check out this winning list from Battle for Salvation a couple weeks ago:

Headquarters:
HQ: Coteaz
HQ: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, Terminator Armor, Psycannon, DaemonHammer, Psyker Upgrade, Empyrean Brain Mines
HQ(IG): Lord Commissar, Power Axe
Troops:
Troops1: Strikes x10, 2x Psycannon, Psybolt Ammo, DaemonHammer, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight
Troops2: Strikes x10, 2x Psycannon, Psybolt Ammo, DaemonHammer, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight
Troops3: Warrior Acolytes x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
Troops4: Warrior Acolytes x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
Troops5: Warrior Acolytes x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
Troops6: Warrior Acolytes x3, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
Troops(IG): Infantry Platoon:
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Power Axe
Elites:
Elites1: Purifiers x10, 4x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 2x Daemonhammers, Razorback, Psybolt Ammo
Heavy Support:
H.Support1: Dreadknight, Heavy Incinerator

This is essentially a Grey Knights version of Tony Kopach's list at NOVA.  I'm betting those Infantry squads were run as a large blog with the Commissar in there for Fearless.  In this build, the psykers cannot join or bless the blob as Kopach's Space Wolves could.  It is literally just there to provide a mess of fearless bodies to clog up the board.

The Purifiers and Strike Squads were obviously combat-squadded to provide the army with 10 scoring units (assuming all the Infantry Squads were mobbed up).  If it were me, I'd have the psycannon half of the strike squads in the back providing fire support from a ruin while the guys with storm bolters push upfield in the Psyback, of which he has seven.  They're there for extra shots, and to shuttle mostly-useless little 5 and 3 man squads around to objectives.

If it didn't have four warp quakes, I wouldn't find this list super scary.  The blob is Flamer bait.  Screamers can handle the DK if it ever walks close enough to be trouble and once those two things are gone, the rest of the army is easy meat.  With warp quake, victory depends on terrain.  If I can't hide behind anything, I won't survive the first turn drop.

As Nick Nanavati showed at NOVA, we can get the job done with the tools in our arsenal, but it doesn't look anything like the list above.  Nanavati had a mere four scoring units at NOVA.  I'm running 6 scoring units tops at 2k points, and that's with IG allies.  All of them are flimsy, ineffective and on foot.  We compensate for lousy scoring ability by taking non-scoring units that are incredibly powerful.  This is why I don't think CSM make good allies for Daemons.  They offer no bonus scoring, and no  units that are much more powerful than anything I can already field.  I really think the biggest downfall of the new CSM dex is the inability to combat squad.  Huge disadvantage.  CSM must field IG to get more than 6 scoring units.

Daemons compensate for the lack of good scoring by being extremely potent.  Screamers and Flamers have been made into two of the most lethal and effective units in the game.  I don't consider this unbalanced because the rest of the codex has significant weaknesses.  Without the incredible destructive power of these units, Daemons wouldn't have the tools needed to offset their fragility and lack of numbers.

As a Daemon player, I can take a 50 man blob with a Commissar, but I don't think I have the luxury of dropping 630+ points on such a unit because I can't take cheap, effective scoring units in my main force.  Perhaps some reader can try it out and see if it works.  Instead, I have to build lists that will kill lists like that one.  On the plus side, lists like this one have defeated the Necron Air Force for you.  Night Scythes will get chewed up by psycannons as they have nowhere to go, little worth shooting at, and no scoring presence.  The NAF was not a top finisher at this tournament, nor at NOVA.  That doesn't mean it's dead or anything.  A list with 5 scythes just won Beakycon, though I wouldn't call that a pure NAF.

First Impression: Bastions

I had my first look at a Bastion in action today.  The mission was Emperor's Will (I think that's the name of the two objective game.)  I placed the objective just outside the door behind the bastion, put a company command squad on the roof with an autocannon and some veterans inside with an autocannon of their own.  Nothing could touch them the entire battle (my opponent had IG and space marines).  They cut down rhinos as they approached to try to contest my objective.

The bastion itself granted a 3+ cover save to the soul grinder I placed behind it making it almost impossible to take out.

In short, the thing works exactly as I expected it would.  It kept my troops completely safe while providing some solid long range fire support.  It's basically a free objective in four of the six games.  I strongly recommend bringing one as a way to keep your allies safe.

Imagine what you could do with four ML havocs inside a bastion plus the champ on the heavy bolter.  Put a tactical squad on the roof with the quad gun and an objective out the back door and you're all set.

Unless your opponent has rail guns, your bastion doesn't have much to fear because your daemons can cut everything with meltaguns off before they get close except maybe deep striking land speeders or storm ravens.  And if your opponent has rail guns, that means they have Tau, and you probably don't need the bastion to win anyway.

Daemon Killer Spotlight: Thunderfire Cannon

Easily the scariest thing in the entire Space Marine codex because they can do to your army what our flamers do to everyone else's.  This bad boy can set up in the corner and provide devastating firepower from 60" away.  If I played Space Marines, I'd definitely take one of these because they can be incredible, plus the techmarine can bump up the cover save of a ruin, which is a nifty perk.  I also like the model.

The cannon fires three different shells, each being Heavy 4, Blast.  Fortunately, it is not a barrage weapon.  Your opponent will use surface detonation against most of your units because it is S6, but should use airburst against your screamers if they've turboboosted because it ignores cover.  4 S6 blasts per turn can cause a lot of pain over the course of the game.  Imagine what will happen to your flamers if you deep strike them within sight of this thing and don't run to spread out.  I usually run mine 6 strong, and two bullseyes would force ten saves on me.  I'd lose half the unit leaving the rest ineffective against vehicles, and easily cut down by bolter fire. 

This is the model that led me to conclude that plaguebearers are nowhere near as good as they used to be.  They scattered on the drop into view of the cannon.  The cannon lit them up and wiped the entire squad in one turn because they couldn't run to spread out or get out of sight.

Now, obviously, the cannon itself is very easy to kill since you only have to put a single wound on the techmarine to shut it down, but if your opponent is smart, they will keep it well-protected.  These need to be your top priority when you face space marines, so kill them as quickly as possible.

If your opponent has the cannons well-protected by other models, the best thing to use to get back there is the flying tzeentch prince because he should be able to get behind it and blast the techmarine with bolt.  If it's unprotected, it is worth dropping Flamers close and risking a bad scatter just to be rid of the damn thing.

The only challenging game I ever had against space marines was when my opponent brought one of these along.  It is hugely effective against my army compared to everything else they bring to the table.  In my area, there is only one guy running these.  I think they'll become a lot more popular in 6th as people are transitioning to hordes and infantry, and this thing kills hordes and doesn't afraid of anything.

When To Go First

It is axiomatic that Daemon players should almost always choose to go second.  The reasoning is that it gives your opponent one less turn to shoot at you, and gives you the last turn to contest or claim objectives, get KPs, etc...  This is usually a sound strategy, but not always.  Certainly, if your opponent has warp quake in any large amount, you will want to go first, but there are other circumstances.

You also should try to go first if your opponent has a lot of fast units that can easily clog up the board to make your deep strikes risky.  This includes Ork Trukk armies and Venom Spam builds especially.  Ravenwing/Deathwing combos can do this to an extent with scout moves and Deathwing assault.

If you are at a tournament with a prearranged board, and one side has terrain that is obviously more advantageous to your deep strikes than another, this is definitely a reason to go first because surviving turn 2 is critical to winning the game. 

You can't see how your opponent deploys when making the choice to go first, but if you see an obvious weakness in their deployment you'd like to take advantage of, try to seize the initiative.

If you are playing against other Daemons, going first is to your advantage if playing non-Tzeentch because you have to assault.  If you are Tzeentch-heavy, going second is where it's at because you can deep strike safely and still alpha strike with slashing attacks, warpfire, or perhaps even breath of chaos if you're not too unlucky.

The Flying Circus Is Not Competitive (Still)

 
Oh, sure it works against lots of army builds that are poorly constructed, but once you run into someone who knows what they're doing, it crumbles.

Check out Kirby's report.

This is what I call an almost unwinnable situation.  The board is open with nothing to hide behind.  It's kill points, so you can't just sit back and try to weather the storm.  You have to walk toward him across an open board while he has a movable 24" kill zone.   You're going to have to play a great game to win this game in the first place, but a flying circus has no prayer.

Look at his deployment.  Obviously, there is a lot of warp quake in the army because strike squads are becoming very popular.  However, warp quake aside, this is a very tough nut to crack.  All of his troops are safely protected in rhinos/psybacks and supported by psyflemen.  You have to waste turns peeling that extra layer off the onion just to get at the stuff inside.

There are 15 different units that can shoot at least 24" in that line, they are all highly mobile, and in this case, they have preferred enemy, which makes it easier for them to hit you.  15 units is enough to knock down a whole lot of FMCs in a turn.  How on earth do you expect to blow up all those transports with 5 models before they shoot you to bits?  You're going to have to land to have a shot at taking out those transports, and once you do, you're dead.

What can beat that list up there is Fatecrusher.  That doesn't make it easy.  On an open board like that it's really tough thanks to warp quake.  Against a regular army on an open board, you just deep strike in their face and hope for the best.  Warp quake makes that unworkable unless you go first.  Since you have to drop about 18" away just to be kind of safe from warp quake, you need stuff durable enough to endure the onslaught and crushers fit the bill here.  If you can get bloodcrushers and Fateweaver on the board, he is forced to waste his firepower on Fatey because trying to kill all the crushers with the reroll is futile.  If you can, land Fateweaver out of sight so he can't be shot at all.

Screamers are able to take out the transports and dreds quickly, which you need, but can't beat the strike squads due to the I6 halberds and preferred enemy, so screamers are a suicide support unit.  Flamers could really do a number on those strike squads if they weren't in transports, and they have to drop so far away that they're in danger of getting shot up before they even get close enough to call them tossers.  Fiends might take out a vehicle or two, but would lose just as badly to strike squads as screamers for 5 more points per model.

Know what else would be useful in this game?  A bastion.  It's something to hide behind, and you can put allies in it to add some armor-popping punch.  Ooh, and a Vendetta, too.  It can help blow up vehicles.  If you can take out those psyflemen before they kill Fateweaver, your odds of winning go way up.

Go Guard!

HA! HA!  I'M USING IMPERIAL GUARD!!!1

Back when I polled the audience about whether they would pick IG or CSM as their allies, didn't nobody answer IG.

But I have!!!

Now, I ain't tellin' y'all what to do, but after a good long look at the Chaos Space Marines codex and trying to make it work for me, I've decided to pick me up some IG as allies for Daemons.  This isn't to say you can't do quite well with Daemons/CSM as best bros.  It's just that CSM are going to eat up a large chunk of my force, whereas I can get away with a relatively small, yet effective contingent of IG  I am sad because I wanted to pick CSM.  I couldn't make it work.

Every time I try to make a list with CSM, I end up over 700 points and not very happy with it.  I can do it with IG.  Moreover, IG scales much more easily such that you can field a decent force at 1500 without taking up half the points.  I may yet pick me up some CSM so that I could field any mix of IG/CSM/Daemons, but for now, I'm gettin' some mans to send forth and die in droves for king and country.

What made up my mind?  The Heldrake did not live up to billing as an awesome flyer killer, which sucks because I love the model.  I wanted to take biker troops, but can't.  I have to pay 175 points for four lousy Flak Missiles.  I can't combat squad, so there's no help with scoring.  I can't make cult marines troops in a secondary attachment, so no awesome scoring Noise Marines for fire support.  They're our only battle brothers, but neither army can join units from the other.  Daemons can't deep strike off their icons.  Daemons can't ride in their transports.  Aside from a few psychic blessings, the armies don't interact at all. Seriously, what's the point?

All told, the book is a poopasaurus rex in terms of what I was hoping for.  On its own, the CSM codex stands up just find if just a bit lacking in the anti-air department.  But they can ally with Guard or Necrons for that, which I highly recommend.  If you want to do the Daemon/CSM thing, I strongly recommend Daemons as the secondary.  Flamers would be quite helpful to the CSM army since I think they'll have a wee bit of trouble with assault terminators.

In the end, everything the CSM codex provides that I need can be provided more cheaply and more effectively by IG.  So, I threw down my GW gift voucher and got me a bastion and ordered a Vendetta and some Catachans on Ebay.  Here is an early version of what my tournament list will look like at 2k points:

Fateweaver
Lord of Change
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes

1507

Company Command Squad, Camo Cloaks, Autocannon
Infantry Platoon
  Platoon Command Squad, Grenade Launcher, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher
  Infantry Squad, Grenade Launcher
  Infantry Squad
Vendetta

365

Bastion, Quad Gun

125

1997

I guess I could buy a bolt pistol for 1999, but who cares?  The CCS sits atop the bastion and shoots the quad gun while issuing bring it down orders to the PCS inside the bastion so their autocannon and heavy bolter become twin-linked.  The two grunt squads cower behind the bastion with a 2+ save until it's safe/necessary to go get objectives.  The list is Daemon-heavy, has 6 scoring units and 4 excellent sources of anti-air.  My allied contingent is heavily-fortified.  If I find the Lord of Change lacking, I can add more screamers or some heavy weapons teams later.  However, I have observed the LoC to be quite versatile, and extremely powerful when combined with Fateweaver.

I also have a double bastion version of this list in the can for 2k point tournaments where double force org is allowed.

I can scale this down to 300 points for a 1500 point game by taking Veterans and a Primaris with either the Vendetta or the bastion.

Chaos Space Marine Allies: Sample Lists (Or An Attempt Thereat)

 
As with the Imperial Guard review, I here present a couple of list ideas for running a Daemon army with Chaos Space Marine allies.  You will notice a recurring problem as we go over the lists.

List the first:

Daemons

Lord of Change
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
6 Screamers
5 Flamers 
6 Flamers

863

Chaos Space Marines

Sorcerer, Level 3, Terminator Armor, Combi-Melta
5 Terminators, Mark of Tzeentch, 2 Combi-Meltas, 3 Power Fists, Gift of Mutation
Heldrake, Hades Autocannon
35 Cultists, 3 Flamers
35 Cultists, 3 Flamers
5 Havocs, Flakk Missile Launchers

1033

Fortifications

Aegis Defense Line, Quad Gun

100

1996

So, I brought everything CSM have to offer that I think Daemons could use (besides Nurgle).  I took Havocs behind an Aegis and a Heldrake for anti-air.  I took Cultists for numbers and board denial.  I took a psyker for telepathy.  I had to take terminators to keep the sorcerer alive so in they went.  Suddenly, it's not a Daemon army anymore, is it?  Chaos Space Marines are peckin' expensive.  I didn't have enough Daemons in the list to make running Fateweaver make sense.  Without Fateweaver, the entire purpose of taking a Sorcerer for invisibility is defeated.  This needs to be a CSM list with some Screamers and Flamers sprinkled in.

Ok, an extreme example to be sure.  Let's try again.  List the second:

Daemons

Fateweaver
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
6 Screamers
6 Screamers
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
6 Flamers

1327

Chaos Space Marines

Chaos Lord
5 Havocs, Flakk Missiles
Heldrake, Hades Autocannon
34 Cultists, 3 Flamers

571

Fortifications

Aegis Defense Line, Quad Gun

100

1998

The Daemon component is the standard Slaede competitive list core that has served me very well thus far.  This time, I have the Lord on a quad gun, two extra sources of skyfire and a bunch of extra bodies.  Looks good at first glance, but look again.  I've added a not-so-hot flyer, a mere 6 dudes in power armor that are also not-so-hot and a single scoring unit that will get swept the instant anything good at assault charges it.  It takes up a bit more than a quarter of my force.  Am I really better off than I would be if I just took a couple flying Bolt Princes and a squad of Plaguebearers?  I'm not so sure.  Maybe I should shift some points and put the Havocs inside a bastion so they can shoot out the fire points.  I can put the lord on the roof with an Icarus.  I don't like the idea of him up there alone, so I could drop a squad of 'nettes and put a squad of marines up there with him.

It kind of doesn't make sense to run 34 Cultists without fearless, so I could run the lord with them and kit him out for combat, but that adds up.  For every four points of of gear I put on the lord, I have to drop a Cultist because I'm out of points.  Or I could drop the Cultists and just run marines in a rhino, but then I'm not getting the benefit of a lot of bodies.  This is all workable, but it doesn't add up to what I would call a competitive Daemon list no matter how I slice it.

How on earth am I going to scale this to 1500?  I don't think I can.  It's not working for me.

I don't find Daemons/CSM a good combo at all.  Instead, here is what I would do:

Chaos Space Marines


Chaos Lord, Bike, Mark of Nurgle, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Melta bombs, Combi melta, Gift of Mutation
5 Chaos Space Marines, Mark of Nurgle
5 Chaos Space Marines, Mark of Nurgle
25 Cultists, Mark of Nurgle, 3 Heavy stubbers
10 Plague Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Rhino, Dozer Blade

5 Bikers, Mark of Nurgle, Flamer, Meltagun, Combi flamer, Melta bombs
5 Bikers, Mark of Nurgle, 2 Meltaguns, Combi flamer, Melta bombs

5 Havocs, Mark of Nurgle, Flakk missile launchers

5 Havocs, Mark of Nurgle, Flakk missile launchers

1535

Daemons

Epidemius
7 Plaguebearers

215

Fortifications

Chaos Bastion, Quad Gun
Chaos Bastion, Quad Gun

250

2000

The two squads of havocs sit safely inside the bastions and shoot missiles out the firepoints at whatever target is most appropriate.  Each squad of CSMs sit on top of each bastion and shoots the quad gun.  This allows all twenty models to pump the tally and gives me lots of versatile firepower in a fortified position.  In an objective game, I place them right behind each of the bastions so the dudes on top can come out in the late game for an easy score.

The lord runs with the flamer-heavy bikers on anti-personnel duty, while the Plague Marines and the melta-heavy bikers work on armor with help from the units in the bastion.  The cultists lay low until the tally hits 20 models.  Then they advance on midfield with the Plague Marines with withering firepower.  At this point, the lord and his squad are a T6 assault beatstick without spending a single point on CC upgrades and my havocs have frag missiles that ignore armor.  The game is over if the tally maxes out.

The army is hard as nails, has 75 models, not counting bastions, is fairly mobile, has anti-air, anti-armor, anti-personnel and 5 scoring units.  Everything synergizes with everything else.  This is way better than any Daemon/CSM combo I can come up with.  Good luck weakening it much before I get the tally up.  I'll deploy everything behind the bastions if I go second.  If you don't have rail guns, you're in trouble.  Want to run the Necron air force at this?  You'd better hope your Doom scythes gets lucky and kill my bastions before I shoot them down.  I get the first shot with interceptor.

I think one of the reasons the Slaanesh icon gets FNP is so the tally doesn't work on an entire CSM army unless you want to pay for nothing but plague marines.

Yep, that's what I would do.  But instead, I play Daemons, so I'd just toast the bikes and infantry with a bunch of flamers and rush the bastions with screamers.  If I can survive the initial round of shooting, I'll beat this every time.  Nothing is good against everything.

Time to poll the audience.  How would you build a Daemon/CSM list to deal with all comers?

Chaos Space Marines Codex Initial Review: Heavy Support

Greetings, friends and neighbors.  We come to the end of our look at what the Chaos Space Marine codex offers as an allied choice to a Daemon army.  Let's take a look at the big guns.

Havocs

Havocs are the obvious choice for Daemon allies.  175 points gets you four flakk missiles, which is a lot of points, but it's the only dedicated source of skyfire in the book that doesn't fly.  If you do the math, this should cause an average of 1.34 glancing hits per turn on AV11 flyers.  Know what also causes an average 1.34 glancing hits on AV11 per turn?  The Heldrake with its autocannon.  It is five points cheaper, has Daemonforge, and is more likely to get penetrating hits, and better against AV12 flyers thanks to S8.

Yes, ladies and germs, the Heldrake is a better anti-air choice than Havocs, and the Heldrake stinks at the job.

If you put the Havocs on a quad gun, the champion can shoot it while the other four shoot missiles.  This should average out to three glances per turn on AV11 flyers before jink saves.  For 275 points, you can do the anti-air thing until your dudes get shot.  Won't take long.

Of course, you still get frag and krak missiles, so they do bring versatility.  I'd rather have them atop a bastion for better line of sight to rain down hate.  You could take other weapon options, but what's the point?  You need skyfire.

Mark Havocs with Nurgle and they can help with the tally.

Sadly, this is the most useful HS choice (for Daemons) and it just isn't that good for the outrageous price.  You are forced to pay 175 points for four S7 skyfire shots when a Night Scythe gets 4 twin linked S7 shots with the Tesla rule for 100, while being much harder to kill, faster and more useful.

I don't know why the rules-writers price anti-air at a such a premium while allowing the Necrons to run super-cheap, extremely-effective flyers galore.  Hopefully they have plans to do something about flyer spam because this codex can't.  If you can rewrite the rulebook to change the way Look Out Sir works within two months of releasing the freaking edition you can re-cost an unbalanced flyer.

Obliterators

Similar to Havocs, but tougher and without skyfire.  Bumping up the tally from long range is their best use.  I harp on the tally a lot because another strategy to dealing with tons of flyers is to be so durable that you just don't give a rip how much they shoot you.  Of course, if all of your targets are up in the sky, you're gonna have a hard time bumping up the tally in the first place.

Defiler

It's nearly 200 points!  It is only AV12!  It has guns galore, but if you fire the battle cannon, they all shoot snapshots!  Maybe the theory of operation is to unload with the battle cannon as it walks across the board and then switch to the flamer and autocannon as it gets close enough to assault.  Assuming it isn't blown to bits before it gets there.

Still, you might be able to make this work.  Advance, shoot battlecannon with daemonforge as your first wave lands.  Advance and either shoot it again or charge.

Wait a minute, I've run Soul Grinders enough times to know they're not that great, and this thing costs even more and is only situationally better.  If you run it, I bet it's very hit or miss for you, how about that?

Forgefiend

Maybe they porked the Defiler because they wanted to sell more of these.  As long range fire support platforms go, this one is pretty good.  Comparable to a psyfleman while being more durable and more expensive.  Forgefiends are really well-suited to an Iron Warriors style list.  They work best in 2's or 3's and you only get one, sadly.

Maulerfiend

It is designed entirely to attack fortifications and low rear armor tanks because it simply doesn't do that well against other stuff.  I mean, it's got a rule called Siege Crawler for crying out loud.  I had to read the stats on this thing a few times before I truly grasped what it's supposed to do because it seemed awful.  Well, it's not, and it has a role in a CSM army as an anti-tank specialist.

It has two attacks base plus one for having two power fists.  That's four attacks on the charge, which will hit most non-vehicles on a 4+.  If all its attacks hit, the magma cutters get two extra swings at I1, so obviously, this thing is meant to kill things that are stationary so that all its attacks are sure to hit.

Against infantry, this thing will average 3 hits on the charge with magma cutters and 2 without.  Lasher tendrils are supposed to keep assault terminators from being able to easily bonk it to death, I suppose, but I really don't know why anyone would take them.  I don't know why anyone would take an allied Maulerfiend for that matter.  Two meltaguns can do what this does.  Deep strike some Havocs back there or something.

Maybe in the coming months there will be fortifications so good that these are worth bringing.  But until that day, just throw a bunch of screamers at that bastion and it should blow up just fine.

Chaos Land Raider

AV14 is spiffy.  Two twin-linked lascannons actually give it a 60% chance to hit a flyer, so it has modest anti-air capability.  It's a great way to get whatever it's carrying into the thick of things with the rest of your army.  I'd probably take it as a dedicated transport for terminators.  If your daemons can take out the melta threats to it, there's a good chance it can wreak some havoc with tank shocks and rams.  Definitely equip it with a dozer blade, dirge caster and a combi-melta.

Chaos Vindicator

It needs a siege shield and daemonic possession to even have a prayer of reaching firing range.  Keep it hidden until your daemons clog the board and it might do wonders for you.  S10, AP2 large blasts are unpleasant for your opponent.  However, two days ago I killed 15 Death Company plus Lemartes in a single turn with a mere three Flamers, and that was two turns after that same squad at full strength dusted Astorath and his 6 Assault Terminator escorts, so I definitely do not need this.


Chaos Predator

Aside from being the most boring choice in heavy support, it has a role in a CSM army as stationary, armored fire support.  It costs about the same to put three lascannons on this thing as it does to take three lascannons with Havocs.  The internal balance is strong in this codex.

Bottom line, there's nothing in heavy support that offers more help to Daemons than Havocs with missile launchers.  I'd much rather get to use more of these cool toys in a primary detachment and bring along some flamers and screamers as support.