Flamers of Tzeentch and You

Yep, they're better, but are they worth taking over Fiends or Bloodcrushers?  There is no question they are the killiest thing in the codex, but they got a price reduction for a reason.  That reason is, they are slow, fragile and short ranged.  (35 points for what they were was such a joke.)

They jump 12", they shoot one thing, which probably dies.  If nothing is in fart range, they're stuck with crappy Warpfire.  Fiends, by contrast can move 12", fleet assault multiple units, stay in combat through the opponent's turn, then hit and run to where they need to be next turn.  The ability to ping pong around the board makes them super useful.  They run out of juice pretty quick, but not without wreaking a lot of havoc.

Crushers are possibly slower or faster than Flamers, but far more durable, and durability has utility in an army that must close with the enemy and is full of flimsy units.  Flamers have to expose themselves to shoot, and they're going to draw a lot of firepower, but if they can survive it, even three can do a lot of damage.

One of the keys to winning with Daemons is to make sure you get favorable matchups, and Flamers match up well against practically everything as long as they can get in range.  Against assault heavy forces Flamers are nearly unstoppable.  Necrons, Dark Elfdars and Orks can smoke them (Incidentally, these are three of the toughest armies for Daemons to beat period.).  Anyone who can shoot and move quickly is not threatened by these guys and as nasty as they are, you still have to jump 12" and hope something is within template range.

Things to keep in mind about Flamers:

- The rules for template weapons say you have to place the template so it touches the most models possible in the target unit without covering any friendly models, so if you deep strike a bunch of these guys, only the front row Flamers will get to shoot breath while the rest must shoot warpfire

- The same rule makes it difficult to target multiple units since you don't get a choice in how your template is placed.

- They were made to take advantage of Look Out Sir!  Run a herald with them if you can.

- They're the only thing in the codex that can reliably de-mech your opponent in the shooting phase.  Take advantage of this because the rest of your army can handle foot troops.

Flamers are a viable choice.  If you can use them properly, they'll do right by you.  Just don't let them get out of position.  Have a plan for where you're going when you move them.

The Flying Circus is not Competitive

I found a battle report from Frontline Gaming that features the Flying Circus vs the same army that beat my scaled down version of it a couple weeks ago at the tournament.

A tabling by the Orks.  Over by turn three.  Once Fateweaver was grounded it was all over.  Four monstrous creatures simply do not have enough power to plow through that many fearless Orks.  You should never take more than 3 tops, and one must be Fateweaver.  The Bloodthirster managed to kill an Eldar jetbiker with a pointless vector strike before dying in assault with the Nob Bikers.  (Bloodthirsters stink btw.  Don't bring them.)

The only thing the Daemon player really did wrong here was to drop Fateweaver in a position where he could be charged if shot down.  He should have been behind the other MCs.  Even then he probably couldn't have won.

You need Crushers for durability and Fiends for speed and volume of attacks.  You can make Flamers work too, but they're harder to protect.  The only way to take that Deathstar down is through the combined might of multiple units.

So morals of this story:

- Flying Circus is a weak sauce gimmick list

- The Bloothirster is a big red pile of poop that doesn't have enough attacks to avoid a beatdown.

- Horrors die too quickly and shoot too poorly to justify paying 100 points for 5 plus Bolt and Changeling when you can have 5 Fleet Daemonettes running around being just as useless for 70.

- Daemon Princes are called Heavy Support for a reason.  Don't use them as your main strike force.

Why Soul Grinders Aren't Competitive

Soul Grinders are a pretty cool Heavy Support choice with a non-ordnance blast weapon and a fleet charge move.  I've played many games where they are absolutely unstoppable.  In games below 1k points, 2 or 3 can be quite tough for your opponent to deal with.

The problem with the Grinder is that it's your only vehicle choice, so it's the prime target for all the anti-armor your opponent brought with them.  In competitive play, everybody brings a balance of anti-armor and anti-infantry so that they can take on mechanized Space Marines.  One of the great strengths of Daemons is that they can build armies that shrug off anti-armor weapons rendering a lot of your opponent's firepower ineffective.

So by taking Soul Grinders, you are playing into your opponents hands by fielding something he expects to face.  Glancing them to death just isn't that hard to do and meltaguns are going to wreck them.

It's better to take advantage of the weirdness of Daemons and avoid armor altogether since the flying Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is so much more effective despite being 65 points more expensive.

Dealing With Flyers (Until the Dragon Arrives)

So I played Space Marines last night.  1500 point Scouring mission.  My opponent brought bike marines backed up by two speeders, a Storm Talon, one Rifleman Dred and a Thunderfire cannon.  In the end he had a 4 point objective, I barely held a 3 point, he had First Blood and Linebreaker.  I had linebreaker and killed 3 Fast Attack (He went hover mode with the Talon) units to his 1 for a tie.  Had it gone 6, we would have wiped out each other's scoring units and I would have won 4-3.  It would not have been close had it not been for the Storm Talon.

Flyers do mean things to flying MCs.  I had a Daemon Prince ready to take out the Thunderfire cannon on the second turn, but the Talon came in and blew him away.

Now last week I had fought a Storm Talon and a Storm Raven in two separate games and had no problems.  The difference was Fateweaver.  Fatey is what enemy flyers must shoot at, which is good because he can shrug off the meager number of shots most flyers put out and keep the nasties around him safe.

So once the next 1500 point FLGS tournament rolls around I'll be sure to bring Fateweaver to help address the flyer problem.

It sure would be nice to be able to take then down, though.  You could load up on IG allies, maybe in an Aegis Defense line with a quad-gun and loads of autocannons.  Your best option is a Vendetta, which isn't a terrible choice since it can drop troops off where you need them.  Now maybe you're like me and don't particularly like the Guard or feel like painting a jillion army dudes and you want to wait and see if Daemons are allowed to use a Flyer on their own before you drop a couple hundred bucks on allies because you have no other choice.  What do you do about flyers?

Troops can be hidden under ceilings or behind walls so that the flyers can't shoot at them.  It's pretty much the job of your troops to hide like sissies anyway.  You should have seen what that Thunderfire Cannon did to my Plaguebearers.  Not being able to run after you DS is a big big problem.

Daemon Princes aren't so easily hidden, so you can deep strike them behind flyers to deny them shooting unless they have turret weapons.  You could also try deep striking them behind obstructions so your opponent can't fly in from their board edge and torch you if you come in before they do.

Fateweaver is your best defense because even though flyers can hit him, they probably can't wound him and he only has a 1 in 3 chance of being grounded.  He will draw fire off your other MCs so they can do the dirty work.  If your opponent has a flyer or two, consider stacking your first wave with all your flying MCs.  Even if you don't get them, you can deep strike them behind enemy flyers if they come in later turns.

As for killing them, without Vendettas it's pretty much a lost cause because vector strikes won't do the job and selling out for IG ground troops and a quad gun is not a good use of what will end up becoming a whole lot of points.

I want my flyer-killing Dragon GW!

Chaos Space Marine Q&A. What's coming down the pipe for our best buds?

Natfka had a Q&A session with someone who claims to have a pre-release copy of the new CSM Dex.  Assuming this is legit, which I do, we got some perspective on what they're army is going to look like.  Of interest to Daemon players is the solutions it brings (or doesn't) to some of the problems with the Daemon army.

The Dragon flyer, in particular sounds like a must-take.  It is said to be very nasty to other flyers, which is something we do not have a good solutions for.  I suspect that Daemons will get to use the Flyer as part of our codex.  However, even if we must ally to take it, we don't have much of a choice.

Some disappointing things that came out of the Q&A.

- CSM cannot combat squad and Cultists cannot take multiple squads in a platoon like the Guard can.  This means you can only get two scoring units by taking CSM allies whereas IG can get you more than you could ever want with infantry platoons.  This is a big disadvantage compared to loyalist marines, but you can always ally with the Guard.

- There is no way to make bikers troops.  I was hoping to run some scoring units that could keep up with Fateweaver and turboboost to objectives late in the game.  As it stands, only cult marines (Berzerkers, etc...) can become troops.  CSM Bikers sound pointless, unfortunately.

- Winged Daemon Princes in the CSM dex still cannot fly.  So you can't swap out one of your heavy support choices for an allied HQ and dodge the HQ tax.  A jump MC is simply nowhere near as good as a flying MC, but perhaps they'll get something to make up for it like nasty psychic powers.

Now everybody wants something different from the codex so you may or may not care about those things.  What I wanted most from the CSM dex was good troops, anti-flyers and shooting that can de-mech my opponent in the shooting phase.  The good news is that all three seem to be there.

Your basic CSM is 14 points and comes with a bolter, pistol and CCW, which is already better than all of our troops choices.  1 special weapon per 5 models means two meltaguns in a rhino for about 190 points.  Just a shame you can't combat squad them.

Cultists are super cheap and can summon Daemons off icons if you have a Dark Apostle, which sounds like it could be the allied HQ of choice.  If you can make Cultists fearless (Slaanesh Apostle?), you've got yourself a scoring horde that should stick around awhile.  Or you can take a minimum number of cultists with a Dark Apostle and an Icon to pay the HQ/Troops tax so you can bring the flyer at 1500 points.

Other than that, I can't see very much coming that I want because I'm scared to death anything I field with the idea of providing long ranged fire support will get blasted off the board before I deep strike in in half my games.

Improvements to Flamers and Screamers

So the latest White Dwarf brings with it improvements to Flamers and Screamers and has made Mono-Tzeentch a viable build with strong choices in every spot on the force org chart.  Tzeentch has the top picks in HQ, Fast Attack and Heavy Support.  Flamers are solid Elites and Horrors are in a five way tie for the worst pick in the Troops section.

Flamers are a lot better.  A full squad of 9 plus a Pyrocaster is a mere 212 points.  They cannot be charged or the assaulting unit will suffer 9 unsavable wounds, so they must be shot.  212 points for 9 Flamers makes them really good at low point totals, and imagine what you could do with a double force org chart.

If you put a Herald of Tzeentch on a Disk in the squad (So long, Tzeentch Chariots!), suddenly you have Look Out Sir! Wound allocation shenanigans on two wound models.  They are still not as fast as Fiends, but a full squad of 9 is every bit as killy, able to vaporize anything that is not a flyer.  Also, they can *gasp* de-mech stuff in the shooting phase reliably!  What's more they do it in a daemony sort of way that is completely boojey, and I just love that about the army.

I was wrong about a Slaanesh Herald on a Chariot being a possible good HQ choice below 1500.  Now I want a 65 point Herald of Tzeentch on a Disc leading 9 Flamers.  All I need him for is LoS.

 The only downside is the loss of the 4+ save.  I will probably pick up 4 more to get a full squad.



Screamers are now always worthy of consideration because that Lamprey's Bite attack works against everything and as jetbikes they can reach anything.  They're a little bit worse in the anti-mech role (though not cripplingly so) thanks to the price hike and the drop to AP2 so they're not throwaway AT units anymore.  Larger units are probably better.

The loss of the 4+ save is mitigated by the turboboost jink save, so they should be durable and fast enough to get where they need to be.

These guys are for killing expensive stuff like vehicles and terminators.  If you use them against plain old I4 MEQ the simultaneous swings they get will exhaust your numbers quickly.  Stay away from Elfdars...

Thoughts on Seeker Chariots

So GW has dropped a fun and interesting new toy for the Daemon army.  I plan to buy three chariots (one exalted) because while I'm not sure it's competitive, the model and rules are so completely bananas that they embody everything I love about the Daemons.

Here are some initial thoughts

First, it has the Daemon special rule, therefore it has a 5+ invulnerable save.  However, unlike the Soul Grinder, it does not ignore shaken and stunned results because it doesn't have that special exception.  With Fateweaver nearby, a squadron is somewhat survivable. For reference, a Psyflemen should remove a single hull point from a Seeker Chariot if the squadron is within 6" of Fateweaver.

However, penetrating hits will render this thing useless on a 3+ (2+ if it's AP2, guaranteed if it's AP1)  because it is open-topped and has no weapons, so a weapon destroyed result = immobilized = box of rocks.  In my mind this dooms the Exalted Chariot to "fun" status.

Second, it can be purchased as a personal transport for a Slaanesh Herald for 10 points less than the Heavy Support option, but there is no rule that says your Herald has to ride or even deploy in it.  So you could take a Slaanesh herald with Musk, Gaze and a Seeker Chariot and deep strike her with some Daemonettes and force the opponent to waste firepower on a cheap, yet menacing model.

In fact, there is no rule that keeps, say a Tzeentch Herald from climbing aboard a Seeker Chariot since embarking a transport is not the same thing as joining a unit of another god.  You could also put an allied CSM Librarian on there with Lash (Edit: It is not legal to ride in allied transports.), or even The Masque for maximum Slaanesh goofiness.  According to the rules, any infantry model can embark a chariot, so you could put a Khorne Herald on a Juggernaut on there and give him a 2+ armor save.  It doesn't say anywhere that I'm aware of that Juggernauts can't fit inside transports.  I have no plans to do any of this.

I am pretty sure joining a squadron of chariots with a Herald is not allowed since the chariot is its own unit that the IC is embarked upon.

Third, the base of the Exalted Chariot is clearly massive and it looks like the exalted chariot's footprint is a great big circle so you might not fit through some tight spots.  (Edit: The base size for the Exalted and regular chariots is the same large oval flyer base.)  If you can deep strike the first model safely, you can use the wideness of the massive bases to place the squadron as close to the enemy as possible, but it is better to stay out of sight.  You then get to move 12" in the shooting phase so it is a virtual certainty that you will be on the enemy by turn two.

Deep striking an Exalted Chariot is not as scary as it sounds.  It is actually safer than DSing a squad of Crushers because you don't have to complete a circle.  You take 1 or 2 Exalted Chariots and 1 or 2 regular chariots.  DS the regular chariot first.  If it scatters near something that will cause a mishap on one side, simply arrange the other two chariots on the other side of the model as per the rules.  Remember that you can go flat out 12" in the shooting phase after you've landed, so pick an open area.

Fourth, like all Slaanesh models it is designed to wipe out hordes first and foremost, but has enough speed and power to deal with MEQ and light mech.  Seeker chariots make entire squads of orcs and gaunts go poof!  But they can also slam into vehicles and kill anything with weak rear armor, mince terminators with rends and volume of strikes..  However, as it is a vehicle, it can't be locked in combat, so your opponent can shoot at it during their turn even with models in base contact with it.  They may not know this because it's a pretty in-the-weeds rule, but it is allowed.

So are Chariots competitive?  Probably not.  Exalted Chariots are way too fragile, way too large, and cost more than twice as much while not being twice as good.  But 3 regular chariots may be able to close with the enemy and cause good damage for not very many points.  Maybe at lower point totals a regular Seeker Chariot could be good for an HQ choice to support charges or de-mech something for 30 points, but I reserve judgment until I've playtested them.

Interview with the 11th Company

I was recently interviewed by Patrick from the 11th Company.  We discussed Fatecrusher primarily, but eventually talked about Daemons in 6th in general.

I'm on after Christina about 20 minutes in.  Thanks to the good folks at 11th company for having me on. 

http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/podcasts/episodeonehundredtwentysevenfinal.mp3

http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/episodes.cfm

A Look At the Changes to the Daemons Units in the New WD

The fine folks at 9K painting have posted an English preview of the Codex update for Chaos Daemons.  See below.

So what have we got here?

Screamers

Screamers now cost 9 more points per model and have two wounds, 3 attacks at S5 AP2 with armourbane.  Better against most vehicles.  Probably a bit worse against Land Raiders, but I haven't done the math yet.

Update:  A single screamer has a 21% chance to blow up a Land Raider under the new rules and a 19% chance to do it under the current rules.  Pretty much unchanged.


They also get a slashing attack that works like a vector strike if they turboboost.  It's d3 S4 AP- hits which stinks, but it does say that hits are resolved from where they end their move, which kind of gives you a clue about how you should resolve vector strikes.

Screamers are now terminator killers in addition to anti-armor thanks to 4 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge at I4.  They lost their 4+ save, which is now 5+.

Hellflayer

The new fast attack choice.  You can only have a squad of one (LOLwhut?!).  It costs 10 points more than a naked Herald.  It's a non-skimmer chariot that is fast and open-topped with AV 11 (Immune to bolters) and two hull points.  Its Hammer of Wrath attacks are S4 AP- rending and it deals an extra D6 HOW attacks for each hull point it has left, (so 2D6 HOW attacks at full HP.).  Terrible!

Soulscent allows the Alluress to take a few more swings for each unsaved wound caused by the HOW attacks before she almost certainly dies.  This makes it worth 20 points more than a Seeker Chariot??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

It is Fast and Fleet so it can move 12" after deep striking and reroll the charge move.

This is a disappointing unit.  Why only one per squad?  If you have a few points left over for a bugsmasher I guess you could field this.

Seeker Chariots and Exalted Seeker Chariots

Ok so these come in a squadron of 1-3 and have Fleshshredder but not Soulscent.  They are on friggin huge bases so you'd better have a lot of space to deep strike them.

The exalted chariot has 4 HP so can do 4D6 HOW hits.  A squadron could do up to 12D6 HOW hits for 270 points.  Which gets you about 7 rending hits plus 36 S4 hits on average.  This will kill most anything that is not flying or a Land Raider or Draigowing.  It had better, too because those Alluresses will not survive combat.

So here's the question.  A Herald of Slaanesh can take a Seeker Chariot.  Can it join a squadron of Seeker Chariots?  It seems like they should be able to, but I can't find a clear answer in the rulebook.

Here's the next question.  The Alluress dies if the Chariot is blowed up, but does the Herald?  I'm inclined to say no because it's an IC and would probably be allowed to get off just like the Necron barge Lord.

I have been looking for an HQ choice to bridge the gap between 2k point games and 1500 and below since Heralds are all flawed and GDs are too expensive.  A Herald on a Seeker Chariot may be the answer.

Flamers

HEY! GW realized these guys were horrible so they made them somewhat better.  The cost is dropped 12 points (I think that's a 3, not a 5), they have 2 wounds and I4.  You can now take a 5 point upgrade character who is there for Look Out Sir! and not for the extra attack on his profile.

Oh and you can't take Bolt of Tzeentch anymore (Sob!)

It is now a viable strategy to run a Herald on a disk with this unit for LoS wound allocation.  In fact, it's a better idea than a Tzerald on a chariot.  They may just survive long enough to reach spitting distance.  Flamers are now listed as "Jump Pack infantry" in the bestiary section.  Wtf is Jump Pack Infantry?  The rulebook has Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry.  Way to confuse folks, GW.  However, the army list entry clearly lists them as Jump Infantry, so no 2d6 free move in the assault phase.

Oh, by the way, the save is 5+ now.

I think they're still not as good as Fiends, but definitely much improved.

Challenges: OMGWTFBBQ!

Challenges are perhaps the single worst rule introduced in 6th edition.  In my past two games I have had units tarpitted in combats they could not get out of because they're all standing around with their thumbs up their fundaments watching two "champions" have a slap fight.

The first was a rumble with the Deathwing.  Belial and his rolling crew sensed that I was up to no good and started making trouble in my neighborhood, so he charged my Bloodcrushers and issued a challenge.  I had two heralds in the squad and for some reason, accepted with the one that was my warlord (This was doubly stupid since my opponent had rolled the warlord trait that gives him a VP for each enemy character defeated in a challenge.).

Anywho, if I had left Fateweaver within 6" of that squad they would have been there the entire fight.  I recognized the mistake after a single round and moved Fateweaver off so as to throw the fight (and giving up 2 VP in the process.  Stupid!).  As it was, it took 3 full turns for Belial to finish off my Herald, who managed to put 2 wounds on Belial for good measure.  My Crushers and Fiends had finished off Belial's flunkies 2 turns earlier, but while the Fiends hit and ran, the Crushers were stuck for the entire battle.

It was only at the top of turn 5 that Belial scored a pyrrhic victory over my warlord, only to get squished in the next round (I had tabled my opponent by this time.  Fiends and Tzeentch Princes are mean to Deathwing.)

My most recent game I charged Draigowing with a Daemon Prince, Crushers and Fiends (You need to multi assault those jerks to beat them.).  Draigo, of course issues a challenge, which my Daemon Prince is not allowed to refuse because he is a unit of one.  So Draigo and the Prince spend 2 full game turns bashing each other's skulls in before the Prince finally wins (4+ invuln with Get Him Boss FTW!), meanwhile the Crushers, who had long ago finished the Pallies without losing a man couldn't do squat.

I still won the game 11-9 on kill points, but this challenge thing is ridiculous.  When Eternal Warrior and invulnerable saves are tossed into the mix these things last the entire game.

There isn't even a whole hell of a lot you can do about this because close combat is where you need your Crushers to be, and you need to bring a Herald for LoS.  Yet another point in the Fiends' favor as they have no need for characters and can hit and run all over the board.

So here's what you need to do.  You never support Crushers with a Daemon Prince when they charge a squad with a character that the DP cannot easily shmush.  You support with Fiends.

You decline all challenges with your Khorne Herald if they are issued by a character wearing Terminator armor unless it's late in the game...  At least until GW forces Khorne Herald to accept challenges like they are apparently going to do to CSM.  (They're not going to enjoy that rule, I tell you right now!)  Yeah you lose 4 S6 rending attacks, but you support the assault with some Fiends and those terminators will fall right over under a rain of blows.

Now there are ways to use challenges to your advantage, too, but just be aware of what a garbage rule this can be.

Flying MCs Deep Striking in Swoop Mode

Yes, you can deep strike in swoop mode.  If somebody tries to give you "They didn't move 12" so they're not swooping!!!1@" line you ask them if a flyer automatically crashes when it deep strikes since it didn't move 18".

Bridging the gap between realspace and the warp counts as having moved 12"!

Daemon Update Incoming

By now I'm sure you've seen the video on GWs site teasing the new Daemon release on Friday.  The rumors according to Dakka include a codex update in the upcoming White Dwarf, new plastic and resin models.

Something called an Exalted Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh headlines the list as a new release and there's a lot of talk about a Daemon flyer, but I don't see it on the list.  I hope we get that Daemon/Dragon thing they're talking about, but we won't know until Natfka or Tastytaste leaks the contents of the White Dwarf.

The Seeker Chariot is rumored to follow the rules for 40k chariots, which could be neato.

Nevertheless, with the possibility of the codex getting completely revamped in less than a week, it seems rash to continue providing tactical advice based on the current rules for daemons.  Really all the Daemons need is cheaper or more effective troops and some anti-air and they're a perfectly competitive army when properly designed.  A complete overhaul is necessary for the codex to gain some internal balance as each section of the Force Org chart has one unit that is clearly superior to all the others (except troops where they all stink).

So I'm pretty excited to see what GW has in store for my army because I'm going to get bored of Fateweaver, 6 crushers with a herald, 12 fiends, two tzeentch daemon princes and some filler pretty quickly.

I'll still be posting over the coming days so never fear, and I'll have analysis of the changes once the White Dwarf drops.  Until then, stay away from Flamers!!!1!1

Chariots of Tzeentch: New Icon Bearers of Choice

The problems with using icons is that A, they have to be on the table from the start of the turn, and B your Daemons carrying the icon are usually not as up close and personal to the enemy as you would like them to be after the initial drop to make them ideal for use.

Never fear, for the Tzeentch chariot, which I have much maligned, is here to solve the problem for you.  You see, the chariot counts as a jetbike, which means it can turboboost up to 24" in the shooting phase, including the shooting phase after it has deep struck..  This means you can deep strike anywhere within 24" of where you want your reserves to appear and then scoot on over, preferably behind some sort of wall.  As long as the herald is kept safe from shooting and assault, he should last long enough to do the job.

There are two ways to kit him out.  You either just give him an icon and a suicide mission for 90 points, or you strap on Bolt of Tzeentch and Master of Sorcery for 125 because why not?

Want to drop those Flamers right next to the enemy scatter-free?  Now you can!

This technique would be devastating if we had better shooting, but we don't, so it's just kinda neat.  If we get a flyer that deep strikes, this could be really good.

How You Beat Dem: Grey Knights

I went looking for 6th edition battle reports featuring Daemons and found this dandy.  Check it out.

Now personally, I don't find Grey Knights super scary compared to, say, Orcs or Dark Eldar.  On my list of tough armies to beat for Daemons it goes DE, Mech Eldar, Orcs, GK, Necrons.  Everybody else is kind of a cakewalk.

GK aren't as big a deal as it seems because they're basically expensive Space Marines with a few extra tricks for the most part.  There are a few things in the GK army that are particularly nasty to Daemons.  These are:

Warpquake
Dreadknights
Draigowing
Psyflemen
Stormravens (Until we get a flyer.)

Three of these were featured in this game.  Dreadknights are difficult for daemons to kill because they are the only model that comes with Dark Excommunication standard.  Librarians can get it, but in all-comers lists, they never take it.  To kill DKs you need to hit them with two powerful units simultaneously so they can only DX one of them. (Update: The new Screamers can chew these guys up because they have no daemonic gifts and lots of S5 AP2 Attacks.  Dreadknight is barely a threat anymore if you have Screamers.)

Warpquake hoses you over, but it is rare to find so much Warpquake in a GK army that it totally prevents you from landing.  It just isn't competitive to bring that many Strike and Interceptor squads to the table, and if they're doing that because they know they're playing Daemons, you should just wait for them to get all their models deployed, offer your hand and say "Good game, asshole!".  (Update: Grey Knight Strike squad spam is plenty competitive in 6th edition if you check out some of Stelek's lists.  Pray you don't run into it.)

Warpquake was used to great effect in the above battle because it forced the Daemon player to drop waaaay across the board so they could get shot up by psycannons while Draigo and his flunkies footslogged it.  However, the Daemon player made a mistake with his deep strikes.  He needed to take out the two Psyflemen because they were scoring, and the Strike squad was easy meat for the  Grinders.  With those things dead, winning on objectives was automatic since the death star could be ignored.  The only things in his army with a good chance to kill the psyflemen were Fateweaver and the Lord of Change with smash attacks.  He should have landed them to the left of the psyflemen so that he could be on them next turn.  Instead he played it safe and guaranteed his defeat by dropping everything too far out.  Sometimes the choice is between certain defeat, and taking a risk that gives you a stronger possibility to win.

Notice too that Warpquake kept the Flamers from dropping in close to the Paladins, which was about the only chance they had to do any damage with such a wide open board.  If he'd been able to drop them an inch away they could have put about ten unsaved wounds on those guys.  I laughed when they died after doing nothing worth mentioning because that is what happens to Flamers against a competent opponent.  If he'd shed 5 points somewhere, those 5 flamers could have been 6 fiends, and they could have dropped next to Fateweaver and the LoC to guarantee the demise of those psyflemen.  (Update: Flamers are good against Grey Knights post WD update.)

Psyflemen are nasty to anybody, but against Daemons their twin-linked autocannons are excellent for shooting down your flying MCs or blasting your Fiends to smithereens.  They don't pose a huge threat to Fatecrusher other than as a tarpit.  If you want to beat GK you need to take out the psyflemen with your fiends and flying MCs.

The last thing you need to be very super scared of is Draigowing because there is very little in your army that can stand up to it.  You can't outshoot it, and only Bloodcrushers backed up by Fateweaver have a prayer against it in close combat.  They have a much harder time with it 6th thanks to the Hellblade nerf.

Draigowing can only be beaten by softening it up with Breath of Chaos from Flying MCs, and by using combined assaults from Crushers, Fiends and MCs.  If you have a Khorne Herald or two with Blessing of the Blood God, you have to suffer 36 wounds for him to take one if Fateweaver is nearby. A squad of Crushers with a Herald and Fateweaver will probably tarpit the Paladins for the entire game.

Any Daemon list you want to field has to be able to deal with all of these threats Grey Knights bring to the table.  Purifiers are not at all scary if you have Crushers, and Coteaz henchman spam is pretty easy to deal with once it gets de-meched.

A General Theory of Daemon Army Construction

Any well-constructed army starts with a solid core and builds around it. For most armies, this core is a solid group of troops. Well Daemon troops stink on ice so that isn't going to work, now is it? Well you still need a core anyway so we need to figure out the non-troop candidates to fill the role.

The answer is Fiends below 1500 and Crushers above 1500.

Fiends can be the core of the army at 1500 points because they can often hide out and reach assault before getting whittled down by fire, of which there won't be as much. Super fast, but they die very easily and every casualty robs you of 5 attacks. If you could take more than 6 in a squad they would be stronger candidates for the army core. At 2000 points they're the second best choice for the job.

Bloodcrushers are beefy enough to take a beating and killy enough in assault to handle most opponents. Even though they're worse than they were, they're still your best choice for the core of your army. Now you support them.

The first thing you add is Fateweaver because he draws heat off your crushers and simultaneously doubles their toughness. First you deep strike Fatey behind where you plan to drop your crushers, then drop the crushers. In the shooting phase, spread the crushers our and fun Fatey to make sure they're in the bubble.

Crushers need a Herald for wound allocation to further augment their durability. You can't let your opponent pick off the closest model to their squads or you'll have a harder time reaching combat.

Though they have few weaknesses, crushers are going to lose to terminators and get tarpitted by walkers. They can't catch fast vehicles, skimmers, or flyers and can't realistically harm Land Raiders. So you bring things that can handle those bugaboos.

Fiends can catch skimmers, munch walkers and soften up terminators with lots of rending attacks, so one or two squads darting around is essential. Two squads of screamers can handle all of those crusher-beaters except terminators and walkers, so they're a strong consideration. Daemon Princes bring fire support behind enemy lines and can assist against terminator squads with Breath and AP2 attacks in assault. They can smash walkers and chase down skimmers. You probably want two plus Fateweaver doing this job.

You have nothing to deal with flyers, but there are rumors than a new Daemon flyer will be out in a couple weeks, so perhaps help is on the way. If it arrives, it's probably an auto-include because if it can shoot down a flyer it will also be able to blow up tanks in the shooting phase.

Finally, you need troops to do the scoring, which stinks because they add nothing to the army so its like bringing along 3-400 points of dead weight. C'est la vie.  Just keep them hidden for most of the battle and contest more objectives than you hold with your speedy stuff.

So here's what it looks like:

Fateweaver
Khorne Herald, Might, Blessing, Fury, Juggernaut
7 Bloodcrushers, Fury
6 Fiends, Might
6 Fiends, Might
4 Screamers
4 Screamers
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, Breath, Gaze, Flight
Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, Breath, Gaze, Flight
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes

1996

If we get a flyer, you drop a Daemon Prince and take it because flyers are the only thing this list can't deal with. Daemon armies are small and the MSU technique that's used by normal armies doesn't work for us because our stuff is so expensive. This is what makes Fateweaver so crucial because he helps your limited numbers last long enough to get the job done. He is what transports are to normal armies.

The strategy is to get the crushers in your opponent's face as quickly as possible so they can't be ignored. The crushers are exactly what you want your opponent shooting at because they can take a big beating and if your opponent is not shooting Fateweaver, you're going to win.

The waves are identical except one has both Fiends squads and the other has Fatey and the crushers. If you get the Fiends, no big deal because they'll be on your opponent wrecking things on turn two when hopefully, Fatey and the crushers drop in.

At 1500 Fateweaver starts to take a real bite out the army so you might leave him behind. Crushers are too slow to do the job on a sparsely-populated board so your philosophy has to change from weathering the storm to beating your opponent to the punch. It looks something like this.

Fateweaver
6 Fiends
6 Fiends
6 Fiends
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
5 Daemonettes
6 Screamers
Soul Grinder, Phlegm (Flyer goes here)
Soul Grinder, Phlegm

1499

Soul Grinders replace some of the role of the crushers by drawing the heavy fire and adding versatility. Since their armor is so high, your first targets should be anything your opponent has that can damage them so that they can rule the board. Fateweaver pulls double duty as your flying MC fire support and an escort to your Fiends. Fiends and Grinders complement each other well with their speed and offensive potential. Since it's easier to get cover with walkers now, you could conceivably make use of Fateweaver with them, but he's really there to keep your Fiends alive because they're the army workhorse.

Fiends should not be used to de-mech your opponent if it can be avoided unless it's a multi-assault that will allow them to stay in combat through your opponent's turn. I find 1500 points makes it tough to get in all the elements of a good army that I'd like since quality Daemon units are so expensive, so I'm a lot more unhappy with the lists I come up with. I'd be ok dropping Fateweaver from the above list and running a Slaanesh herald on a mount, another grinder and more screamers.

2000 points really feels like the sweet spot for daemons.

Daemon Princes and Their Uses

There are umpteen jillion ways to build a Daemon Prince.  You can get them very cheap and almost totally ineffective, or you can boost them up over 300 points, which is just silly for a model with four wounds and four attacks.

That four wounds, four attacks thing is the thing to keep in mind when you build a Daemon Prince.  No matter how many goodies you give them to make them good in assault, they will never be able to cause more than 5 wounds (6 if you took Mark of Khorne) in combat, and will probably cause 2 or 3 per turn.  Compare this to your true assault specialists, Crushers and Fiends, and they don't come anywhere close to measuring up against pretty much any target.  Tooling up a DP for assault is barking up the wrong tree.  It does a worse job at something your elites are already among the best in the game at.  It's the same reason smart Blood Angel players don't like the Sanguinor.  Too easy to remove with shooting for so many points, and it has to reach combat to do anything.

Moreover, the assault phase now requires massive amounts of attacks to get the job done before the game is over because fearless squads are everywhere and Marines are completely unsweepable.  2-3 wounds per turn in CC doesn't get you very far.

Even a shooty DP provides sufficient CC power to support your assault specialists against tougher targets like terminators, and this ties in to exactly what makes Daemon Princes useful.  Daemon Princes bring three things--shooting, speed and versatility--for a lower price than a Lord of Change, which is the only other unit in the codex that is comparable.  In theory, a Daemon Prince is able to kill anything in the game if you get lucky enough.  In practice, they're just another anti-infantry unit that can take out mech in a pinch.  

Remember, Bolt of Tzeentch is very poor anti-mech for an absurd price, and while Smash attacks can bust up transports, you don't want your 200+ point model having to expose themselves on the ground to take out a 35 point rhino unless it's absolutely necessary.

What you want to be doing is blasting that hard-to-reach Long Fang squad on the back of the board or smashing that Psyfleman before it can hammer your assault specialists too much, but the great thing about them is they can help out anywhere they're needed and they're fast enough to get there (if you gave them wings, which you did, right?)

Since the primary job is anti-infantry shooting with anti-mech and assault support as secondary roles, the best way to kit them out is to maximize shooting damage potential without breaking the bank.  This is why I advocate taking Mark of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery, Flight, Breath and Gaze.  It's 225 points, and it can kill a lot of infantry (7-8 MEQ per turn) while retaining all of its secondary usefulness.

Two of these darting around make excellent fire support since they can use their mobility to stay out of sight then swoop in to their targets and shoot them from the side of the squad your opponent doesn't want shot.

I can't see how making DPs the core of your army would be effective in a competitive environment.  4 wounds is still 4 wounds even if your opponent needs 6s to hit you.  Lose all four and there goes 225 points.  Smart tournament players will be ready for airborne threats with all their twin-linked autocannons, and as soon as you're shot down, bye bye Daemon Prince.  It's called Heavy "Support" for a reason.

Daemon Tactics: De-meching Your Opponent

The Daemon army excels at killing foot soldiers and is sub-par against mechanized armies.  There are steps you can take in your army construction to deal with this problem.  Think of your army as organized into two waves (no, not those waves).  The first wave is there to destroy as many tanks as it can in assault.  The second wave mops up the rest.  A select few units are able to do both jobs.

Bolt of Tzeentch is so overpriced and unreliable for popping vehicles that it should not be considered outside of Fateweaver.  Instead, you have two tools at your disposal, and both are quite well-suited to the task.  These are Fiends and Screamers.

Fiends are cheap, fast and nasty on the charge, but don't tend to last in a competitive game.  Their rending attacks are well-suited to taking out transports and Dreadnoughts that are the most popular things that give Daemons a hard time.  If they end their charge turn out of assault, they tend to get shot to bits the following turn, so they must be used wisely.

Screamers are half the price, but much more specialized than Fiends.  Two squads of four should be able to kill two vehicles for 128 points, a cost comparable to a psyfleman.

Seekers and Flesh hounds can also serve in the de-meching role, but they aren't as good at the job as Screamers, struggle with walkers, and can't hurt Land Raiders.

Your two hybrid units that can do both jobs are Bloodcrushers and flying MCs.  Crushers are quite good against tanks if they can catch them, and have improved against AV12 walkers thanks to being able to glance them to death on the charge.  In assault they can handle anything but terminators without too much trouble.  They are also much more likely to survive the shooting that follows the turn after you blow up a bunch of vehicles.

Daemon Princes are good against tanks thanks to Smash, but have to expose themselves to a lot of danger to get the job done.  Flight allows them to swoop in from 24" away and cause massive damage to infantry in the open.  Between Vector Strikes, Breath and Gaze on rear armor, you might be able to glance a transport to death, but it isn't likely (2.3 glancing hits on armor ten average.).  You really have to land and take your 3 S10 swings on a tank to get the job done, and once you've done that, your DP is probably a goner.  Think of MCs as a last-ditch anti-tank resource that stays in the sky unless landing to support with assault is absolutely necessary.  These guys cost so much that you must not take unnecessary risks with them.

Using the speed of Fiends and Screamers as your first line of attack can soften up your opponent for lightning strikes by flying MCs and mop up duty by Bloodcrushers later.  Fateweaver and Bloodcrushers are useful for drawing fire away from your initial strike force since they're fragile.

Major Weaknesses of the Daemon Army

The Daemon army is widely regarded as one of the worst armies for a number of reasons.  I get why folks believe this, but in 5th edition, I lost so infrequently that I started to wonder what the big deal was.    There is no question the army suffers from some major weaknesses, and despite all the improvements to most of the Daemon units in 6th, the army has more problems now than it did before.  Here is the rundown.

Randomness

Bad luck can do you in with Daemons more than any other army.  You have a 1 in 3 chance of starting the game off with the squads you don't want.  You have to deep strike everything.  You rely on assault to do your damage and that exposes you to failed charges.  A skilled player can take steps to mitigate all of these things, but it's still something you have to live with if you want to play the army.

Poor Troops Choices

All five of the Daemon Troops are bad.  Even Plaguebearers get shot off the board with ease now.  Horrors are a shooting unit that doesn't shoot well.  Daemonettes cost the same as basic Genestealers and are worse.  Bloodletters are the killiest, but too slow to really make it to combat.  Nurglings can't score.  Compared to Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar or Orks, they're just a point sink you hope you can keep alive to hold objectives.  You don't have access to transports without allies so you lose that extra layer of protection that other armies get.  To top it all off, allies work worse for Daemons than any other army due to screwy deployment rules.

No Psychic Defense

Blessing of the Blood God only works against psychic attacks that cause wounds, which is great sometimes, but if you get hit by one of those nasty telepathy powers, you get your 6+ save and that's it.

Inability to Pop Transports in the Shooting Phase

Daemons are so assault oriented that they have to rely on it to de-mech the opponent.  This allows your opponent to roll their troops out and shoot you next turn.  No big deal for Bloodcrushers, but not so nice for Fiends, who are quite good at taking out transports.  The best shooting attack the army can muster is Bolt of Tzeentch, which is terrible on anything but a Daemon Prince, and far too expensive on a Daemon Prince to be taken in sufficient quantities to make it reliable.

No Flyer Defense

About the best you got is a Bloodthirster vector striking which probably won't kill a thing for your 270 points.  If you want better anti-flyer than this, you have to ally with the Guard...  Lots of em.

Not Much Help From Allies

For now anyway.  The CSM codex is as bad or worse than the Daemon codex and is way outdated compared to its loyalist counterparts.  Even Dark Angels can offer Deathwing allies to their Imperium buddies.  IG is the only other option.  They can bring a lot of scoring units to the table, but you have to be careful not to overspend on them.  Platoons and Chimeras pile up fast and pretty soon you're not really a daemon army anymore.  If the new CSM codex doesn't bring the option to get more than 2 scoring units, this problem does not go away.  Personally, I'm hoping they get the combat squads special rule and the ability to get bike troops.  Then they can scoot all over the board, popping transports, sitting in Fateweaver's bubble, and turboboosting to objectives in the late game.

No matter who you take as allies, they have to survive the first turn of shooting if you don't go first, and you don't always have a place to hide everything.


Despite all of these problems, skilled Daemon players still crack the top spots at big tournaments.  The army isn't completely hopeless.

Tournament Lessons Learned

I placed second at a FLGS tournament last night, which was "In the money" but disappointing.  Three rounds, 1k points.  Here was my list:

Herald of Slaanesh, Unholy Might, Mount

6 Fiends, Unholy Might

5 Daemonettes

5 Plaguebearers

Soul Grinder

Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Breath of Chaos, Unholy Might

Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Breath of Chaos, Unholy Might

1000

The first two games I completely tabled my opponents.  Their lists were mostly infantry and poorly constructed.  There is nothing to be learned from those games other than transports are still relevant.  However, the third game was instructive about the limitations of the Daemon army, and the problems the flying circus can run into.

My opponent was running Kult of Speed Orks with 4 Trukks and a Battlewagon.  Each Trukk was loaded with Slugga Boyz while the Big Mek rode in a Battlewagon with his KFF to provide cover saves.  He also had two solo Deffcoptaz that managed to do nothing all game.

The mission was The Relic, Dawn of War deployment, which was bad luck for me because I knew my two squads of troops could never fight through all those orks to get to the thing.  (I had no idea what the tournament rules would be when I made the list.)  I could have probably won on any other mission by picking him apart.  I figured I had almost no chance to win, but that my Soul Grinder would be the key to victory since the only thing in my opponent's army that could harm it was the Deffrolla, and pie plates are pretty good against orks.

Deployment

My opponent chose to go first which was smart because he could get to the relic before I could deep strike in.  He deployed board center with everything protected by the KFF and mutually supporting each other.

If you had the first turn, you could not deep strike a flying circus anywhere near this and expect to survive.  Imagine this line scaled to 2k points.  The boyz in the Trukks would shoot you down, and then pick you off one by one.  If you don't take Bolt of Tzeentch, you can't easily blow up the trukks to get at the boyz.  Bolt is an awful expensive tool to be using on Trukks, but I could have used it.

Turn 1

He rolled everything up toward the relic staying in mutual support, leaving me nowhere to attack.  I wanted my Fiends and Soul Grinder and got my Daemon Princes instead.  They warped in behind his army to cut off their escape since I planned to drop the Grinder in line of Sight to the relic.

Turn 2

As expected, one of the Daemon Princes was shot down, got assaulted, and was polished off during my turn just as my other Prince (The blue guy at the top right.) charged in and swept the boyz.  I couldn't send my Blue DP toward the bulk of his forces because he had tons mutual support and would just kill him off too.  My Fiends and Soul Grinder came in with the Fiends scattering back toward the near board edge, and the Grinder right up on the orks.  Phlegm scared off the squad that had claimed the relic, but failed to harm the Battlewagon.  I thought he would try to ram the Grinder with the Battlewagon since that was the only thing in his army that could hurt it, so I wanted the fiends in place to take it out once it rolled around the corner.

Turn 3

The Daemon Prince swooped to midfield Vector Striking a Deffcopta out of the sky on his way, but did nothing with his Breath of Chaos.  The boyz that failed their morale rallied as they were above 25% strength and his other squad of boyz claimed the relic.

In my turn I should have assaulted the Boyz with the relic with my Soul Grinder so they couldn't get away with it.  For some reason, I was more worried that the Deffrolla would come blow up the Grinder, so I backed off figuring the Fiends could do the job.  My fiends declared a multi-assault on those two boyz squads.  I rolled a 4 and a 3, which was far enough to reach one squad, but not the other.  I needed to get them both or they would pile into the Battlewagon next turn and get away.  I rerolled the 3 and got a 1 so the charge completely failed.  Pretty much game over at this point.  Huge mistake to back off with the Grinder.  Those Boyz would have been fearless, and he could not have tank shocked me with the Deffrolla.  I could have had my fiends and Prince charge in later and clear the path for the Daemonettes.

I forgot to take pictures after turn 3.  My bizzle...  Eventually, the Fiends and Daemonettes got hacked down by two squads of boyz.  The Daemon Prince was forced to assault the Battlewagon to kill it, which he did.  My last chance at a draw was a turn six shot from the Grinder.  Phlegm was on target, and my opponent made the mistake of positioning his Nob with the relic as the closest model to the Grinder.  However, he made all his Look Out Sir! saves and didn't drop it.  I lost 5-2, First Blood and Linebreaker to me.

Yeah, I got the wrong wave and had bad luck on the Fleet charge roll, but the situation was almost unwinnable.  I had to table my opponent to win and didn't have the tools for the job.  I needed a perfect game and made a big mistake.

Even if I had been able to keep the orcs off the Relic, I couldn't get my troops to midfield and out alive.  A second Soul Grinder might have made all the difference in this battle, but this illustrates the problems you will encounter if you go pure flying MCs and don't use them as support like they're supposed to.  If I had dropped one Prince, lost Unholy Might from the Fiends, and added a second Grinder, I could have fielded 5 more Plaguebearers for a ten-strong squad that might have been able to challenge at midfield.  However, even 10 PBs can't stand up to Orcs the way they used to.  T5 and a 5+/5+FNP is not good enough to deal with 80 Slugga Boy attacks.

The single biggest problem with the Daemon army right now is the awful troops.  They are each overpriced and underpowered, and bringing them in sufficient quantities to score cripples your ability to damage your opponent.  The best armies have scoring units that can actually contribute to the battle.  We don't.  Even Boyz aren't top notch troops choices, yet we don't have anything near as good as they are.  I anxiously await the new CSM codex in hopes that I can get some cultists on the field.  Maybe the Mark of Slaanesh will make them fearless.  If that has no help, it's time to take a long look at the Guard.

Next tournament is a Feast of Blades qualifier at 1999+1 points, and everything but flyers scores under their rules, so I can take two squads of 5 Daemonettes (I don't own any Nurglings and am not buying any for this.) and field stuff that can get the job done.  Huzzah!

The Flying Circus and its Weaknesses

The current vogue Daemon build is 5 Monstrous Creatures supported by whatever.  This almost always includes Fateweaver, with a Bloodthirster or a Lord of Change as the other HQ.   You may see some Daemon Princes with Bolt instead of Breath or even both, but the concept is the same.  Bolt on a flying DP at least lets you shoot rear armor.

With 5 MCs, you will have over 1200 points tied up in five models.  They can't all be near Fateweaver.

Most people running this type of build are wrecking their opponents for the time being.  I don't know how long that will continue since Daemons are pretty unpopular as an army so a lot of folks don't know how to beat them in the first place.

The Flying Circus is vulnerable to massive amounts of anti-infantry firepower.  Lascannons, missile launchers, etc... are not as valuable as Orc Shootas, or Boltguns.  Every time a squad that shoots your flying MC rolls a 6, your flyer has a 1 in 3 chance of getting grounded, possibly taking a wound in the process.  They are now likely to die from follow up shooting.  Even Fateweaver is in big trouble.

Anything with Skyfire is extremely dangerous to this build, and you have no credible defense against flyers right now unless you take a Vendetta squadron, so Storm Ravens, Dakkajets and Night Scythes are your worst enemies.  Anything that fires a template cannot hit flyers, and I suspect that guns (and pure assault units) that can't shoot flyers will fall out of fashion in favor of things like Rifleman Dreadnoughts that can threaten almost anything with their S7 (S8 for GK) twin-linked shots.  As Flak missile launchers become ubiquitous, the Flying Circus will be more threatened, but only a bit more than it is already.

The build is also threatened by MSU with transports because it limits the amount of damage your 5 MCs can cause in a turn.

Check out this list Stelek put together for the NOVA Invitational:

1 Master of the Forge, 120 pts (Conversion Beamer)

4 Company Command Squad [Guard], 135 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Company Commander [Guard]
1 Chimera [Guard] (Heavy Flamer)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

4 Tactical Squad, 125 pts
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Rhino (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Storm Bolter)

4 Tactical Squad, 165 pts
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Bolter)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Dreadnought, 125 pts (Twin-Linked Autocannon; Twin-Linked Autocannon)

1 Infantry Platoon [Guard], 705 pts
4 Platoon Command Squad [Guard] (Meltagun x3)
1 Platoon Commander [Guard]
1 Chimera [Guard] (Heavy Flamer)
9 Infantry Squad [Guard] (Meltagun x1)
1 Sergeant [Guard]
1 Chimera [Guard] (Heavy Flamer)
9 Infantry Squad [Guard] (Meltagun x1)
1 Sergeant [Guard]
1 Chimera [Guard] (Heavy Flamer)
7 Infantry Squad [Guard]
1 Heavy Weapons Team [Guard] (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant [Guard]
1 Chimera [Guard]
7 Infantry Squad [Guard]
1 Heavy Weapons Team [Guard] (Autocannon)
1 Sergeant [Guard]
1 Chimera [Guard]
6 Special Weapons Squad [Guard] (Meltagun x3)
6 Special Weapons Squad [Guard] (Meltagun x3)

If you were to face this army with a pure flying circus, he would hide everything in Chimeras and shoot out the top with rapid fire lasguns.  All of the weak guns would shoot first to knock you down, then he'd hit you with the heavy stuff.  He has more than enough shooting (23 separate units by my count) to knock down every MC you have, and probably enough to kill at least two in a turn.  Once those two are gone, you're done.  You can't cause enough damage to all those Chimeras and Dreadnoughts with only 5 models.  You'd be lucky to glance two Chimeras to death.

Do Daemons even have an answer to such a list?  I dunno.  I've beaten a 6 Dred army in 5th under ATC rules but this isn't 5th.  You have to be able to survive all that shooting, and for that you need Fatecrusher because Fiends are nasty, but not durable enough to kill more than 2 or 3 squads before they pass out.

The only actual threat to Fatecrusher is the 6 Dreds because nothing else is packing enough heat, and the Dreds can tarpit.  The rest is squishy, and designed to kill more common foes.

Try this:

Fateweaver

Khorne Herald, Fury, Might, Juggernaut, Blessing

Khorne Herald, Fury, Might, Juggernaut

6 Bloodcrushers, Fury

6 Bloodcrushers, Fury

6 Fiends, Might

5 Daemonettes

5 Daemonettes

5 Daemonettes

5 Daemonettes

Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Breath, Flight, Might

Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Breath, Flight, Might

1998

Now you at least present Stelek's list with problems because crushers are a bear to remove with shooting, especially if the Herald is the lead model.  The units most likely to wound a Crusher are the Meltavet squads, and they can only manage .75 per turn of shooting on average.  If you can manage the Riflemen, you can smash his entire army.  Keep your Daemonettes out of sight so they can run to objectives once the coast is clear.  This is not a list that is guaranteed to beat something of that caliber.  He still has the advantage, but it has a better chance than a flying circus.  

A Review of Daemons in 6th: Heavy Support

After you maxed out your elites and took just enough troops to get the job done in 5th edition, the trick to list building was to figure out how to make an army that didn't suck using HQ, Heavy Support and Fast Attack.  Since all choices in Fast Attack were horrible, that left you with HQ and Heavy Support.  Both HS choices were terrible in 5th.  They've been improved from terrible to, "meh".

Soul Grinder

I think they're one of the most fun units in the codex to play with because they're pretty versatile, and they can occasionally wreak havoc.  AV13 on the front and sides with 4 HP sounds pretty durable, but it just isn't, especially when it's your only armor on the field.  They are unmissable by blast weapons now thanks to the rules change and their massive size.  This more than offsets the boost Phlegm gets from the same rule.

It's still a fleet walker, and it can kill Land Raiders better than anything else in the army except Screamers if the Land Raider doesn't kill it first, which it probably will.  Low I, WS and BS cripple its reliability.  Tongue would be useful if it had BS4 or twin linked or something.  Usually what happens when I field them in 6th is they drop, blast something with phlegm, and get blown away the next turn.

It's a fun unit, not awful, but not competitive above 1000 points.


Daemon Prince

As the cheapest models in the army with Skyfire, Daemon Princes of Tzeentch are almost mandatory in a competitive list.  A Tzeentch Prince with Bolt, Wings and Breath will set you back 230 points, and you may or may not want Master of Sorcery.  I can't fathom a reason to build one any other way except for lulz.

The fact that they can Skyfire BoT at BS5 or vector strike and Breath stuff on the ground makes them super versatile.  Unlike flyers, they are denial units, so can get you linebreaker or contest objectives.  They are also scoring in Big Guns missions.  One little FAQ and they go from overpriced to priceless.  Funny how that works.

1.  They are shooting units.  Much of their damage comes from vector strike, and since you can't assault and VS on the same turn, you can only maximize their potential by going full shooty.

2.  They must always fly.  A footslogging MC has 4 wounds that are stupid easy to remove.  Flying MCs bring durability, and target saturation.  Two hallmarks of a well-constructed daemon army.

The mark of Khorne is completely pointless because it doesn't help you shoot well and you lose access to Breath of Chaos.  The +1 T granted by Nurgle is expensive and not as useful as it sounds as you won't take too many hits when flying.  Slaanesh is only for Pavane, and the Blue Scribes do that job better.  Tzeentch is best by a mile because of skyfired Bolts of Tzeentch.  You could also get away with an unmarked prince with breath and flight on the cheap if you think you can live with a 5+ save.


Your opponent will want to ground your flying MCs and assault them to keep them off their troops.  If this happens, try to declare a challenge so that you can survive long enough for something to come to the rescue.

Monstrous Creatures are not good close combat units.  Princes especially so.  4 WS7 S5 attacks is 2 or 3 wounds per round, and with T5 they die easily to lots of attacks.  Use them to support assaults if necessary, but never charge in alone unless you can't possibly lose.  Otherwise, keep them flying around.  They are fire support.

Seeker Chariots

The White Dwarf update brings a brand new unit.  Did we get something to kill flyers?  Nope!  How about better troops?  Pootie Tang says, "Nah nay no".  Instead, GW wants you to field a big pink lawnmower that is an open-topped Rhino with two hull points.  That means it's immobilized on a 3+ if penetrated, and that's from AP3 or higher!  If your opponent rolls a 2, it's stunned and your squadron can't charge.

It's a transport vehicle, so it can't be locked in combat, so the turn after you flop your lawnmowers into the enemy lines like a mackerel, your enemy can calmly walk around behind it and shoot rear armor, then charge it again.

It does 1d6 S4 rending hits on the charge per hull point, which is bad.  Normal chariots are D6 S6 Hammer of Wrath hits.  The Exalted chariot has 4 HP, but since it is rendered useless on 2/3s of penetrating hits and costs more than double the normal crappy chariot, it's actually worse.

It's big and hard to hide, but it is a fast vehicle, so it can move 12" after the deep strike and get right up in your opponent's business, forcing them to use what minimal amount of firepower is required to make it so that if your chariots do get to charge, they will hit their lines and fall over like Arte Johnson on his trike up there.

Perhaps they have value as a screening unit ala the ole Rhino rush of yore.  Bollox to that, says I!  It's a bug smasher that does all the same stuff everything else Slaaneshi does.  Flimsy, fast, lots of hits, Rending.  Not as good as Seekers of Fiends.

This article features references to both Pootie Tang and Laugh-In.  That's called enculturation.  You're welcome, you pukes!

A Review of Daemons in 6th: Fast Attack

Not a single worthy choice to be found in this section of the book in 5th edition.  With the White Dwarf Update, there is only one choice here (Hint: It's the only FA choice in the White Dwarf update.).

Furies

They got Hammer of Wrath now.  Yay!  How they came up with the cost of these guys is a mystery for the ages.  What are they supposed to do?  You never even see them run for giggles in Daemon battle reports or White Dwarf for that matter.  Maybe this will become the anti-flyer unit in the next book.  I could see them doing that.

Flesh Hounds of Khorne

"Blood Hounds" was taken, I guess (Bloodbeasts?  Warhounds?).  Beasts get move through cover now so Karanak is pointless.  The  squad works okay as a tarpit to Grey Knights.  Flesh Hounds don't have a niche in the army.  They do the same thing as everything else in the army, but not that well.  They're an assault unit with nothing to boost them in assault except Furious Charge.  I do not like them.

Seekers of Slaanesh

The Juan Diaz Seekers are another reason I chose the Daemon army.  Love the models.  You can buy recasts on Ebay from Hong Kong.

5 attacks on the charge with Hammer is pretty rad.  But they're super flimsy.  You need to run about 14 to really get anything out of them, and even then, they tend not to hold up well after they've swung.  If you want to compare them to Flesh Hounds, 10 Seekers kill about 6 MEQ on the charge on average, while 10 Hounds kill 3.33.  Seekers are more fragile and more expensive.  Seekers get 5.55 glancing hits on the charge against rear armor 10, while Hounds get 6.66, a push.  Hounds can't hurt AV12 walkers.  Seekers take dangerous terrain tests anytime they move through difficult terrain, but have grenades and Hammer of Wrath.  Seekers are much better than hounds against hordes.

I say the Seekers are the better of the two crummy units.

Screamers of Tzeentch

With the codex update, Screamers are more expensive, but much better at killing everything except Land Raiders.  They're still pretty ok at that job too.  Always turboboost them after deep strike to keep them safe and get that 4+ jink save.

Slashing attacks are a somewhat decent if you use a large squad.  Overall, they're better and cheaper than Fiends except for no Hit and Run, which they don't need, and no Fleet, which would sure be nice to have.  Everybody thinks Fiends are great.  Screamers are better.

Hellflayers of Slaanesh

It's a Seeker Chariot, which is terrible in the first place, except that it costs 20 points for the very stupid Soulscent ability.  Unbelievable.  Even the fluff for this unit is silly because Slaanesh thinks it makes his pansy ass armies stronger.  How about perfecting a flyer or making Daemonettes cost 9 points?!

A Review of Daemons in 6th: Greater Daemons

Greater Daemons have changed a lot with the introduction of flying monstrous creature rules.  They haven't done anything to non-flying monstrous creatures to make them worth taking over flying ones.  At least not in the Daemon codex.  Greater Daemons are usually at their most effective above 1500 points but are often scarier looking than their actual effectiveness.

Bloodthirster

Well it can fly now, so that's cool.  It's the best Vector striker codex because 1D3+1 S8 hits from a vector strike is about the best you can muster, and even that isn't very reliable since it's AP3  (1 in 6 chance of knocking down a Storm Raven with a penetrating hit, 1.5 glancing hits average per pass, 2 glances on a Dakkajet.), so it's not a very good argument in their favor for the 270 point price tag.

The Bloodthirster got hit hard by the loss of 2d6 armor penetration.  In 5th you could charge a Land Raider and cause 3 penetrating hits.  Now you will cause .67 with 6 S9 attacks.  If you smash, you get .88.  Bloodthirsters get 4 smash attacks on the charge.  5 attacks divided by two rounded up (you always round up) is 3, plus one for the charge, (always add the attack after modifiers).  A Khorne Daemon prince can also get 4 smashes.

The Bloodthirster's wings do not synergize well with its close combat-oriented role.  If you're doing S8 vector strikes, you're not assaulting.  If you're assaulting, you lose the vector strikes.  In assault, it's hard to figure out what he's supposed to kill better than, say, Screamers, Fiends or Bloodcrushers.  Those are better against tanks and infantry.  Fiends and Screamers kill walkers better.  Screamers are better against Land Raiders.  The list of things the Bloodthirster is the tool of choice to use against is pretty short.

Skarbrand

With the boost in importance of initiative, his reroll attacks ability makes Fiends and Seekers meaner.  But it also gets them beat up pretty good.  You should see what happens to Fiends when a Furioso with a Blood Claw is within 24" of Skarbrand.

He is tough to keep alive since he can't fly, and his attack boosting ability is not as much of a benefit as you might think because you don't actually want to kill the enemy on the turn your Fiends assault them.  You want to kill them next turn, or at least hit and run.

He gets you too beat up for my taste.  Leave this guy in the box.

Lord of Change

This is the shootiest unit in the Codex after Fateweaver.  On a typical turn, this guy can kill 7-8 MEQ models, which is nothing to sneeze at.  But you're really taking him because he's your only T6 Flying Monstrous Creature with Skyfired Bolt of Tzeentch.  This fellow next to Fateweaver is a big meanie.

290 points gets you Breath of Chaos and Master of Sorcery tacked on, but without We Are Legion.  He can do some damage, and he's versatile.  A bit pricy, but the best GD not named Fateweaver by a mile.

Fateweaver

Now that reserves are more reliable, this guy is practically mandatory in tournament games above 1500 points, and is the one 333 point model in the game that is acceptable to field at or below 1500.  Flight and boosts to reserve rolls made him much more reliable.  He's your best shooting unit thanks to having every darn Tzeentch gift in the book, and also the best force-multiplier in the game.  Tougher to kill than ever since flying makes it hard to put those 9 wounds on him required for him to suffer one.  Oh and he has skyfire and Bolt of Tzeentch.  It's like the perfect model.

Contrary to popular belief, his main benefit isn't the reroll he grants to your army.  It is all the shooting he forces your opponent to send at him that lets the rest of your army roll them up.  He's even better at that now.

He's pretty good at escorting Screamers now, since they can turboboost to his bubble while spreading out far enough to be ready to charge stuff next turn.

Keeper of Secrets

The Forgeworld KoS is one of the reasons I chose daemons.  I'm a Slaanesh/Tzeentch guy at heart.  Every time I field it, it dies after accomplishing next to nothing.  This is one of those units that got a lot better without actually becoming good.  See, it's kinda fast, but not that fast.  And it's a big wussie when it gets shot which it does a lot because it's huge and pink and scary and has a great ass and a chain between its nipples.  You can use Fleet and Pavane together now so that's something.

I'm looking forward to the next codex to see what goodies they give them to make them worth taking. They're tied with the Bloodthirster and the Khorne DP for most Smash attacks (4 on the charge) in the codex, so they're the best at instant deathing T5 models, and they have equaled the Bloodthirster in the anti-mech role.  With Transfixing Gaze and I10, they're your best duelists.  You may as well add Soporific Musk for Hit and Run.  They can use Pavane and take advantage of Fleet now too, so why not?  Of course, if you bought all that garbage, it's 270 points or something, and it's just going to get blasted first turn. Maybe drop it next to Fateweaver or something.

The problem with MCs is that they don't have enough attacks or wounds to be better at killing infantry than your own infantry, so they need to be good at something your regular units are not.  7 attacks simply isn't enough to do very many wounds in close combat compared to cheaper Screamers, which are faster, and better against tanks.

Great Unclean One

He's cheap, he's got 5 wounds and Feel No Pain, so with T6 and a 4+/5+ he's pretty survivable.  4 attacks isn't going to do much though.  He's too slow and not very mean.  The only gift worth taking is Cloud of Flies.  He's a defensive unit in an offensive army.  Too slow and not killy enough.  He has utility as a fire magnet if dropped right in front of a large amount of enemy shooting.  He looks scarier than he is, and can't actually be ignored.

Ku'gath

For 300 points you can have a GUO with a poisoned AP2 blast weapon and 3 nurgling bases per game on average if he arrives first turn!  Who wrote that Nurgling Infestation rule anyway?

When run with Epidemius, he can make the tally climb faster.  I think he's 300 points because with the Tally he becomes extremely mean.  He also kills Elfdars and doesn't afraid of anything.

A Review of Daemons in 6th: Heralds

Heralds are generally more useful at 1500 points or below where their cheapness offsets their lack of killiness.  In 6th, all but the Nurgle Herald have their uses.

Herald of Khorne

Useful until they took away Look Out Sir wound allocation.  Now, they only bring S6, which kind of helps against walkers, which are nowhere near the threat they used to be since you have Screamers now.

Skulltaker

He costs 40 points more than a properly kitted out Khorne Herald but has an extra attack instead of unholy might.  His instant death rending attacks are great against Paladins, Nob Bikers and the like.  Since Walkers no longer tarpit Crushers like they used to, your biggest worries are terminators and challenges.  Skulltaker with Get Him Boss ends challenges fast.  If I'm taking Crushers, I'm taking Skulltaker because he helps counteract the loss of AP2.  He's overpriced, sadly.

Herald of Tzeentch

Lots of folks folks haven't turned on their brains and still run these with Bolt, We are Legion and Master of Sorcery on a Chariot for 110 points because that was super popular in 5th edition.  Somewhere along the line, people became convinced that Bolt of Tzeentch was totally awesome and mandatory if you wanted to compete.  The truth is, it stinks.  Let's do the math.  Say your Tzerald shoots at a Rhino.  He has a 67% chance to hit it.  The Bolt has a 50% chance to penetrate.  The penetrating hit has a 50% chance to destroy it.  This means your Herald has a 16% chance to blow up a crummy 11 AV transport.  That is one Rhino per 6.25 turns.  It's even more useless against higher AV.  Boo!

If you take your 4 shots at infantry you will cause 1.88 wounds per turn on average.  Lousy even against MEQ.

Somebody explain to me why I should ever want this?

You took that in 5th edition because glancing hits could keep tanks from shooting and you had no other cheap options.  Welcome to 6th edition.  That doesn't work anymore.

Before they took Look Out Sir wound shenanigans away, the thing to do was to run them with Flamers on a Disc.  So much for that.

Tzeentch Heralds are still the best of the generic Heralds.  Arguably even better than the Scribes.  Give them a chariot, an Icon, Breath of Chaos and Master of Sorcery.  Now he can turboboost 24" in the shooting phase after he drops and your reserves can drop in bad spots for your opponent.  In an anti-mech role, the Tzerald is a non-entity.  Forget Bolt.  Use Gaze and Breath.

The Blue Scribes

Drop them with Flamers to keep them safe first turn.  Then you split them off and use Pavane of Slaanesh and whatever else.  They set up your Flamers to absolutely smoke whatever gets Pavaned.  They can also potentially shoot two Bolts of Tzeentch, which ain't too shabby.  Then there's possible double Boon of Mutation, which can be awesome.  Double Breath of Chaos rocks as a charge reaction and as a regular shooting attack.  I highly recommend these guys at or below 1500 points.  Above that total, their effectiveness greatly diminishes.

Herald of Slaanesh

75 Points gets you an S4 model on a mount that is in every regard worse than a Fiend but for the fact that it has the equivalent of grenades and I7.  Wowee...

You can purchase a Seeker Chariot or an Exalted Seeker Chariot for the Herald, which they do not have to ride, or deep strike in.  You could then run the Herald with some Daemonettes and give them hit and run or something.  I don't recommend doing any of those things.

The Masque

Mech is less good in 6th, but is still really good, so her one trick pony thing is probably not always going to be useful.  If you keep her near Fateweaver, she'll last awhile.  Otherwise, she dies when she hits the table.

Pavane is useful for putting those models your opponent doesn't want in front of their squad in front of their squad, and could become very very good depending on how the metagame changes.  It's also good for pulling models out of cover so your assault specialists can charge them.

If you want Pavane, take the Scribes.  If you want lots of Pavane, take the Scribes and the Masque.

Herald of Nurgle

Pretty pointless.  Even in an Epidemius list because all Epidemius lists should now be Plague Marines with Epidemius as an ally.  He brings absolutely nothing to the table.

Epidemius

By now everybody has thought of the power of bringing him alongside a Plague Marine army.  Yes, that is exactly what you do.  You take him and 7 plaguebearers in a single unit.  They automatically deep strike turn 1 (I don't think the chaos gods can select a wave with no units in it.).  You put them in a board corner to cower and let the tally climb.  It will get scarier if they start letting you take Blight Drones in normal games.

I've seen an Epidemius list in action with Daemons as the primary detachment, and it is a rock, but fast armies that can pick their battles can run rings around it.  Once Epi dies, there goes your gimmick.

His biggest selling point is that he is the only thing in the codex that can make your crummy troops good.  That is not to be discounted.